Crying it out & reflux - what to do?

[Bartimosaurus]

DS is 8 months (today!) and a terrible sleeper, waking 4-5 times a night.

So far I've always done all the nights (until I crack around 6/7am and send DH in) for various reasons, but mainly 'cos I breastfeed and was on maternity leave.

However I am now back in full time work and have been for 2 months...yet I'm still doing all the night wakings and am exhausted. A few times we've sent DH in but if it's the first time DS wakes then he just screams until I come into the room (when he stops immediately and practically jumps into my arms) and if it's 5/6am ish he just wakes up completely and wants to play (whereas if it's me, he'll go back to sleep)

So, I think we need to do something different (before I crack completely). At the moment DS associates me with sleeping but not DH. In fact, apart from the first few weeks, I don't think DH has ever got DS to sleep.

I think DH should do all the night wakings for a couple of nights (I'm even prepared for it to be a weekend so he hasn't got work the next day) so a) he can learn how to get DS to sleep/DS can stop only associating me with sleep and b) so hopefully DS will learn that it's not so fun waking up in the night when he doesn't get breastfed (I've tried not feeding him in the night but I'm not strong enough)

I said to DH that we should try this and even if DS cries loads, I shouldn't come in. DH said in that case we should just leave him to cry it out (as advised by all his friends/colleagues etc. whose angels of course sleep through the night )

I don't want to leave DS to cry it out 'cos I'm a big softy but more importantly because he has reflux, and often when he cries in the night, I pick him up and he throws up or just does a huge burp, which was obviously causing him discomfort and he couldn't get it out himself. However, there are times when it's not reflux related (usually the wakings after midnight), he's just woken and can't or won't go back to sleep (he can self-settle, he has done it loads of times but doesn't always)

So, how to get a refluxy baby to sleep better? Would you let a refluxy baby cry it out?

(BTW - We're not in the UK and haven't managed to find any medecine which works for the reflux - DS' Dr has said that we've tried everything available but nothing works.)

wow long post
basically - would you let a refluxy baby cry it out? DH and I can't agree on this and until I persuade him I'll continue to do all the night wakings

As much as I understand how desperate you feel, a d I really do, I wouldn't. As you probably know, he is crying from the burning pain the reflux is causing him. He won't cry it out. He'll lie crying in discomfort.

Have you tried elevating the head of the mattress? It's a little thing we did with Dd who had dreadful reflux. It helped a bit but she was also having Gaviscon in her bottles which I think helped more.

Oh and yes to your DH doing some more night wakings. To change your child's associations and cos, well, it won't kill him to do shit bit for a change.

Thanks
I don't think DH realises how much DS throws up/burps at night. Obviously, cos he doesn't go in!

We used to elevate the mattress but it made no difference, and now he moves so much in his cot I don't think it would help

Do you need a prescription for Gaviscon? Might see if I can buy it online

We got children's Gaviscon in powder form from the GP and I don't think it's available over the counter. No harm to try the Internet. Was a little life saver for us and DD.

I know this seems endless to you, it did to us. All I can say is that the reflux eased off naturally between 12 & 14 months.

Thanks foofy
It does seem endless. We'll have one good day when he isn't very sick (but still doesn't sleep well) but then the next few days he'll be really sick. Yet we haven't changed his diet

I was told it would be better after 3 months (no), then when he could sit up (no), then when he started solids (no)...

Seems like our next target is 12 months!

OP, to be honest it seems like the real problem is your DH refusing to share the night wakings, and making you "choose" between your baby crying it out and going in to soothe him. This is not right. I sympathise, DS is 15 months and has only slept through 3 or 4 times, and by "through" I mean until 5 - 5.30am. Both DH and I are very tired, and we chose the path of least resistance - we put a mattress on the floor of his room and we take turns ce-sleeping from about 1am until the morning. DS seems to be getting better though.

I know co-sleeping is not for everyone, however in this case I think it's the only way to deal with the night wakings, unless you can spend a couple of weeks doing gradual withdrawal or another gentle method of sleep training. I am a softie too, and wouldn't do CIO anyway, but even less in your case. Your DS is not well, he sometimes wakes up in pain and it would be cruel not to comfort him. You would comfort him if he had a fever, I can't see how this is different. I completely agree that your DS should get used with your DH comforting him in the night and your DH should pull his weight.

Not much help I'm afraid, but it does seem to get better.... fingers crossed I haven't jinxed DS' sleep now...

Oh goodness - please don't let him cry. If you're not keen on co sleeping and really want him in a cot in his own room then you could try a reflux wedge and sleep positioner. Much more effective than raising the cot up on books, which in my experience did nothing (have 10 week old DD with reflux). I got them from www.babyreflux.co.uk/

That's a shame that you can get prescription meds where you're living - Domperidone and Ranitine have helped my DD out a lot. I have a stash of Infant Gaviscon which I'm happy to post to you if you PM your address? It didn't do too much for us though, and is a real hassle to make up if you're bf.

Yes, your DH really does need to step up to some night time parenting - can't believe you're 8 months in and he's not done a night shift yet! Baby will need to get used to him in coming in though if he's not usually hands on? Maybe try him going in with every other waking to calm, cuddle and settle. Will your DS take a bottle? My DH does a night shift every evening from about 10-2 while I sleep and gives a bottle of ebm.

I can't believe we're 8 months in either without sharing nights! Didn't think that would happen (DH is lovely and supportive...just doesn't do nights)

At first it was easier for me as I was breastfeeding and not going to work so I thought DH needed to be more rested than me (now I'm back at work I know that's bollocks!)

But we've just seemed to slip into the habit of me doing nights. Every so often I crack and DH says he'll take over from 4am...but typically those are the nights DS sleeps 3am-7am....

It is also my fault a bit - I know that I can calm DS very quickly so we can all get back to sleep quicker. If DH goes in then DS is awake a lot longer and so are we...

Don't feel bad about your DH never having dealt with nights - DS is nearly 16 months and DH still hasn't. It's not that he's not supportive (and I more than anyone know that looking after a baby all day is as much if not more work than a 'proper' job) just the same as you its sort of become a habit and is easier/quicker for me to do it.

I agree with the others that you shouldn't let a baby with reflux cio. I don't believe in it for any baby but one with reflux is much more likely to end up in a state if left to cry. I do think your OH should do his fair share and if you want to night wean that can be tackled too but if you're going to go cold turkey leaving him to deal with the nightwakings knowing your baby will make an almighty fuss (and with good reason, that's no comfort, no milk, no mummy and who is this joker trying to get me back to sleep all at once) - isn't that the equivalent of crying it out just with someone (not the right person in your baby's eyes) there?!

I strongly recommend you tackle the night weaning and the night waking and your DH starting to help out as separate issues to be dealt with one at a time. It might will take longer but I think your baby will be much happier for it and therefore so will you. It's no good your DH saying he doesn't 'do' nights but that's just a cop-out isn't it? If you night-wean first (provided you believe you LO is ready for it, mine is only just at 15 months) he'll no longer have a reason to think the nights are your domain.

You could search Google for Dr Jay Gordon's advice on night-weaning. It's really worked for us and we've been able to get DS sort of in his own cot (side-carred to our bed) as a follow-on step. DH dealing with night-wakings could be a next step if DS even acknowledged his presence rather than screaming like he's been abandoned but fortunately there haven't been any so far.

Best of luck, you'll get there!

I haven't read the entire thread just wanted to put my support in for Gaviscon. I have 5 Dcs, no1 and 4 had reflux. Gaviscon definitely helps. Make sure baby has it right before bed and it might help a bit. I understand the agony I really do but you can't leave him in pain. Give it a few more months when digestive system is a bit more mature.

Great post cupoftea thanks.
Very good idea about separating out the issues.

I've no idea if DS is ready for night weaning yet...I would have said a definite no as he often feeds really well at least once in the night (the other times just suckling for comfort and sleep I think) but the little monkey slept 8pm - 6.45am without waking last night

Absolutely NO idea why. I, of course, kept waking up because of uncomfortably full boobs!

Will have a think about how to address the different issues. I think that I can't give up the first waking (usually around 11pm-12) cos that is when DS feeds best. Maybe I can give DH the next waking...

Will also look up the night weaning thing you recommended. Thanks.

Firstly, what reflux meds have been tried? If he has reflux that is troublesome, then that needs sorting first as he is simply not going to sleep well unless he is free of pain.

Order of treatment usually goes: infant gaviscon (usually useless, especially with BF babies. Not always, just warning in advance!); ranitidine (Zantac) sometimes in combo with domperidone (motilium); if those don't work, then usually omeprazole or lansoprazole are trialled and if administered properly these should really do the job because they reduce stomach acid secretion very substantially.

Secondly, have you tried excluding milk products from your diet and also from any solid foods he may be having? Cow's milk/ soy protein allergy is fairly common and presents almost identically to reflux - vomiting, unsettledness, 'wind', mucus in stool etc. It can be present in BF babies as their mum's milk can contain traces of cow's milk/ soy protein.

Milk products - e.g., cheese, yoghurt, right down to whey powder - all need to be excluded from both your diet and his for a trial period of at least 2 weeks. Ditto anything made from other mammalian milks - e.g., goats'. If no improvement after, say, 3 weeks then you can probably safely conclude it's not cow's milk causing the problem.

Apols if you know all this, I thought I would just mention tho :)

HAving said all this, refluxy babies are often v hard to soothe and develop particular sleep associations as a consequence. It may be that your DS has just got residual bad sleep habits that are now not really caused by the reflux.

In which case...I think sending your DH in is a great idea. He needs to be totally consistent and just put up with the crying. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but the others are right when they say he needs to step up and do his bit. Can he take a few days off work following a weekend and help out until you've cracked it?

CIO might not work anyway as it's a prime time for separation anxiety, your son's age - he may just get horribly distressed. I personally am not against it and don't believe the research connecting it to adverse outcomes is very convincing, but neither can I do it - just can't handle the heartbroken screaming !

Hope you find a way through soon. It's awful not sleeping and working full time.

Which country do you live in if you don't mind me asking?

We first tried some gel of some kind (polycilane?), meant to soothe the throat. It didn't work.
Then we tried Motilium with something else (can't remember the name but it was to soothe the throat). Didn't work in the slightest.

We've also done osteopathy when he was 4 weeks old and I'm going back this week to see if there's anything else to be done.

We're in France, and to be honest when the Dr said there wasn't anything else I just let it go as it didnt seem to be that bad. DS was sick several times a day but didn't seem to be uncomfortable (this was months ago)

Now though it's just getting worse and worse.

This weekend we tried DH going in at various times in the night but DS just yells when he sees him, and twists round to look at the doorway (still shouting/crying) whilst waiting for me to come in. I think he's is starting the separation anxiety now - he's a lot more clingy of me recently than before, so it's not really the time to leave him at night.

Am so tired as DS hates the heat (his bedroom is 26° atm and we can't get it any cooler) so this post might not be very coherent!

I cut out diary from my diet way back when DS was 5/6 weeks (he was ebf). It seemed to made no different so I gradually put it back in again, again with no difference.

We've noticed that yoghurt seems to make him sick, as does fruit sometimes.

I might try cutting out all dairy again for both of us - very hard to do as I do love my chocolate

When you cut out dairy did you also cut out soy? It's really common for babies allergic to milk to be allergic to soy too. DS was fine with soy having said this but I had to be absolutely rigorous with anything containing milk - e.g., no skimmed milk powder and whey in things like biscuits etc. The fact that yogurt makes your son vomit I think increases the likelihood of it being milk-related. He maybe also has some sensitivites to fruit? Common allergy-inducers are kiwi, strawberry etc.

Ranitidine (I am guessing this is what was prescribed alongside the domperidone) is often ineffective and is often prescribed at too low a dose in any case.

I looked up polysilane gel and it appears to be dimethicone/ simeticone, which in the UK is available over the counter as infacol (a colic remedy) and which studies have been shown to be absolutely useless for anything :( It would be especially ineffective for reflux because it's meant as a drug for flatulence and burping. As I said it's not really of any proven use anyway.

In britain, US, Australia and New Zealand it is quite common for children with diagnosed severe reflux to be treated with drugs like omeprazole/ lansoprazole; they are really effective but do have a few side effects which need to be considered.

I think the fact it's getting worse with age and not better needs investigation.
I think I would look into finding a specialist gastro paed and see if they can help further. The right treatment can make a world of difference.

8-9 months is peak separation anxiety time - often a time of shocking sleep too. poor you, it is really hard going.

WRT the sleep training I would say don't be put off doing some gentle stuff though - it is quite possible that his sleep can be improved at least a little bit even if it is the reflux causing the issue.

Or alternatively... have you tried co-sleeping? It can be a life saver in the short term.

Thanks for taking the time to reply

I didn't cut out soy - will have a look to see what's actually in what I'm eating!

For fruit he's only ever had apple, pear, banana and peach. I'm waiting for his 12 months before doing strawberries etc. and I'm reluctant to give kiwi as my mum is allergic to it.

I don't like co-sleeping. I've tried it once or twice but I end up not sleeping for many reasons - either DS kicks me loads or I can't sleep for worrying about rolling or hitting him. I have been known to sleepwalk/talk/move a lot and have hit out at DH before now so I'm scared of doing it to DS. Especially as the worse I sleep, the more I sleepmove.

I think I will have to investigate a gastro paed.

Thanks for all your suggestions narmada

Just wanted to add to this - DS had reflux and was a terrible sleeper. He also reacted to foods in other ways eg green veg made him windy (bum wind) so wasn't always burps waking him up.

We found cutting out acidic foods helped (tomatoes, citrus), no soya, no dairy, no green veg for tea, no beef. Also weak peppermint tea after his dinner (a few sips) and sometimes in the night really helped. He needed a lot of BM though as he couldn't have dairy.

I found that teething made his reflux worse - more saliva maybe? Not sure. Anyway worth considering!

Thanks
Interesting about the wind - sometimes DS is crying and crying then lets out an enormous fart and stops

Poor little mite - I'm sure he's got his stomach problems from his dad. I'd never even been sick before I got pregnant!

Reflux is shit

Also dd had reflux and banana's used to make her scream out in pain

Sorry haven't read whole thread, am at work.

I used to get infant gaviscon over the counter at the pharmacy. It was only last year so it may be worth a try.

And sympathies, reflux is seriously shit.

That's interesting black DS generally refuses bananas - the only fruit he doesn't like!

Went to the osteopath yesterday. She says he has tension in his thorax which may or may not contribute to the reflux

Horrible experience though. I've never heard DS cry for so long and wasn't able to comfort him

Oh and he's been really croaky all week because (according to Dr) he was so sick on monday that the acid must have burnt his vocal chords

Feel like a rubbish mummy

Sore throat/ hoarseness is a classic sign of reflux, at least in adults, and I am sure in children too.

PS, you are not, repeat NOT, a rubbish mum.

I feel so bad hearing him croak and it's meant that I've actually left him to cry for shorter periods than normal at night, because I feel so sorry for him. So no improvement in the nights for us this week.

Am too tired to think straight, but I really must try something different at night - I got up 4 times last night

DS is definately going through a clingy phase though. Last night he was giggling and "running" (I hold his hands) towards DH but as soon as DH took him from me he cried and turned back to me. Poor little mite. Though he was giggling again at his papa 1 minute later (from the safety of my arms!)