Frequent night wakings to feed- 9 month old.

[mummy2b2011]

Hello All,

I need some advice regarding my 9 month old DD's sleep. She has never been a good sleeper or napper, though has vastly improved in recent months (ever since she started sleeping on her front, really). Nevertheless, there is still a lot that needs to be improved, hence this post.

Evening routine has been in place for months and seems to work pretty well; dinner at 5.30, bath at 6pm, quiet time and then feed to sleep- in cot by 7.15pm.

She then sleeps until 10.45pm ish. When she wakes, I feed her back to sleep. From now on, she will wake every couple of hours and then wake for the day between 5 and 6 am.

(For a while- between 6 and 8 months ish- she was sleeping until 1/2am, little feed and then back in the cot until 5ish and then up for the day- this was clearly a very early start, but because the night was OK, we were fairly happy with this.)

Recently she has been waking so so frequently, I have been letting her stay in the bed with us- I don't need to wake up properly to feed her back to sleep. It's probably worth mentioning that she is having a proper feed, so I don't think that it is just habit.

It seems that regardless of what we do, she will only sleep for 9 hours- if she has a particularly wakeful night, she will sleep a little later in the morning. Do some babies only need 9 hours per night?

Napping is not great: she has a nap around 9am for 30 mins, then at 1pm for around 30 mins and then (sometimes) another nap around 3.30pm which generally last for 30 mins as well. She seems to be incapable of sleeping for longer than one sleep cycle. She does sleep in her cot, which is progress on how things used to be (for the first 6 months she refused to sleep anywhere but on my DH or me- or right next to me in the bed at night- once we put her on her tummy, her sleep was transformed and was able to sleep by herself for longer than 20 mins at a time!)

One thing that I was wondering about was the introduction of solid food- perhaps she has been filling up on (relatively low calorie) solid food throughout the day and needing to have high calorie breast milk through the night?

She has also been teething for what seems like weeks (months?) so perhaps it's that!?

Also (finally!) I was wondering about when was the right time to night wean; I am not interested in CC/CIO btw...

So sorry about the rambling nature of this post! Hope you can decipher and thanks in advance for any replies

R

No advice, but just to say that my 9 month DD wakes every 2 hours to feed, and always has done, - has only slept 3 hours in a row a handful of times. She is asleep by 8.30pm ish (We try to get her down from 7pm in some vain hope that one day she falls asleep earlier) and wakes at 6am.

So very similar. Except you had a reprieve where you caught up on sleep!

There is a sleep regression at 9 months though, so if you're willing to hang in there for a couple more weeks, you should see an improvement on its own- or at least that's what I'm hoping for!

You could try Elizabeth Pantley's no cry sleep solution. It hasn't worked for us - in fact I am now in direct email communication with her as she tries to help, as she is adamant that her methods work, but as they are gentle they take time!

Personally I am waiting till she is a year old to night wean...

Oh and my DD is a 30min napper as well, Elizabeth Pantley suggests that if you can lengthen naps, it can lengthen sleeps at night as well.... well, we're still working on that.

You've got a direct line to Elizabeth Pantley Wavey. Wow! Your situation sounds very similar to mine, so if she passes on any gems not in the book, do pass them on!

Lol yeah! In desperation I emailed her website, expecting some minion to reply - and got a personal answer! I think she sees us as a challenge now

Ha ha . I don't have a 30 minute napper. She has just started doing 90 mins-2 hours. This is a miracle. However, we also had a week where she woke up every 45 minutes. As I said, pass on any gems...

She sent a huge long email last time full of LOADS of tips, but most of them are in the book - she's just given more details and examples.... like putting the cot mattress on the floor for naps so you can settle and get away. Play white noise for the WHOLE of the nap time, and go in to resettle 5 minutes before they normally wake - this last one is actually working for us a bit...

She does suggest trying a snack in the night to check if it is hunger, but DD is just not interested in food after about 5.30 - she wont even eat if dinner is too late.

Sorry OP if I've derailed your thread!

Right, just been re-reading her last email, and her big tip for frequent feeders is to use the Pantley Pull-Off earlier and earlier during night feeds, and keep it really boring and dark....

- Wavey

OP - to try and make up for derailing, is this your first child? I think a big reason DD2 feeds so much at night is I can't do the quiet/dim light thing I used to do to get DD1 to concentrate on day feeds. Could that apply to you?

OP, think naps need sorting. 1-1.5 hrs for a 9 month old is very low and I would think over tiredness is the issue. I think the feeding to sleep has also created a poor sleep association which explains the waking every couple of hours. All children and adults become conscious in the night but generally turn over and go back to sleep. It's this 'skill' which some babies take a while to learn, or instead they learn that you'll help them do it.

You also make a good point about the night feeding compromising her intake during the day. I truly believe that a fully weaned baby does not need feeding at night unless going through a growth spurt. I know this view may be unpopular...

I have vague memories of my DS being a terrible sleeper around 9 months - 'twas awful. I too fed him to sleep whenever he woke, co-slept on really bad nights. It did seem to just sort itself out for us, at around 10 months he slept much better. Now at 17 months he sleeps 7pm to 6am. Dropped night feeds on his own (he still has a bf before bed and if he does ever wake in the night I'd feed him still as its as much about comfort for him).

How much does she bf in the day? Does she nap well in her pushchair? I took DS for really long walks to get a nice long nap!

Hi All,

Thanks for all of your replies! Am also v. impressed that you have a direct line to Elizabeth Pantley, LittleWaveyLines!

I read NCSS a few months ago and the one thing which 'stayed' with me was the breaking the association between feeding and sleep... so perhaps this is something I need to work on.... though lots of things that I've read support doing this (most recently I read 'Beyond the Sling' by Mayim Bialik which made me feel bad for not having DD in the bed with us ALL the time!!)

DD is a thumb sucker and has, on occasion, settled herself this way. A couple of months ago she slept 7.30-4am (!!!) and so must have been able to resettle without needing DH or me; part of me hopes that this will just naturally happen again without us needing to intervene too much (as with TheLurkiestLurker)

Re. naps, yes, I agree that 1.5 hours is not much- she has been like this for months and I have tried various things- letting her sleep on me, walking with her in the sling (and the buggy, though she generally hates this so a bit of a non-starter). She does sometimes sleep for a bit longer- 2 days ago she slept for an hour just after lunch , so perhaps a full tummy may be the key.

(As an aside, WRT weaning, we are doing BLW, so I don't really know how much she's getting-(as with BF as well!) most of it ends up on the floor or smushed on her face ... I'm just trying to trust that she knows what she's doing. What I would like to know, however, is the order to feed her in... is it feed then solids or solids then feed? I was (when we started) doing feed then solids on the principle that she wouldn't be associating solids with hunger yet and that it's experimentation at this point... but my HV said that I should do it the other way round now. But what if she is filling up on low calorie food such as apple, banana and other root vegetables and then not wanting much bmilk because her tummy feels full... then needing more calories at other times (through the night?!))

loveisagirlnameddaisy what age do you think a baby should be fully weaned? I can't imagine BM not being a part of DD's diet for a looong time! Also, it isn't always clear (to me ) when DD is going through a growth spurt... I sort of operate on the assumption that when she is teary, fractious, hungry then she probably is.... I also bfeed her whenever she is any of the above as it seems to help.... feel like BFeeding is about lots more than satisfying hunger.... but that's another thread topic!

YoullLaughAboutItOneDay no, she is my first. For months I've had to take her into a separate quiet room to get her to concentrate on feeding. Unless ravenous, she will never feed in a busy, noisy, light place- just too interested in what's going on around her!

Do you think I should try and increase her daytime milk feeds to ensure it isn't hunger waking her?

LittleWaveyLines just read back your first post- so sorry it's also so difficult for you. Why do you think 1 year before night weaning? Think I will wait until then too, but wondered whether there is any research supporting this (or just mother's instinct )

Thanks all so much for your replies- much appreciated!

I think 1 year before night weaning partly because she is soooo young still at 9 months, (I still wake for water in the night, and when breastfeeding still like a snack in the night as well, ) but partly because Dr Jay Gordon says so too.
drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

Kellymom suggests night weaning for Toddlers as well kellymom.com/parenting/nighttime/weaning-night/

I think there has been some research as well but can't for the life of me remember where I saw it! Possibly in the book 3 in a bed. I do think it is natural for them to feed during the night, but I also think there is a balance, and if Mother is too tired, then it needs to be cut down a bit, but when it's the easiest way to get them back to sleep in the middle of the night....

I think at this age they are so distractible anyway, that they are bound to want to make up some milk feeds during the night. I'm of the long-term breastfeeding is best opinion, as I think they need it immunologically, and I've read that early weaning is a risk if all night feeding is cut out, and also if solids replace milk too much. So I'm also doing feeds before solids.

Kellymom suggests feeds before solids
kellymom.com/nutrition/starting-solids/solids-how/

Oh and another linky supporting solids after feed www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/search/label/Weaning%2FStopping%20Breastfeeding

Wow! Thanks so much for all of the fantastic links! Don't feel any less tired, but certainly feel like I'm doing the right thing for my LO. I've read a few ideas that I will try when she's 1.

It's amazing how bfeeding is viewed in mainstream society... most of my NCT group see an early weaned baby as a success story and long(er) term bfeeding as being about the mum rather than the baby (!).

LittleWaveyLines, you've been so helpful- thanks for taking the time to post those links

"she is having a proper feed, so I don't think that it is just habit"

It is, actually. Our meal times are based entirely on habit. If you woke up for a full meal at 2 AM for a month, you would then wake up hungry at that time because your body would be used to eating at that time. That would be one of your proper meal times.

I know this for a fact, actually, because this is exactly what people do during the month of Ramadan in some Muslim countries - wake up at 2 AM, eat a full meal, then go back to bed and sleep, wake up a few hours later and fast until sunset. Repeat for a month. Wake up hungry even when not fasting in the days/nights following Ramadan. The only way out of this is to go back to sleep without eating until the habit disappears.

By fully weaned, I didn't mean no milk! I meant three meals a day combined with milk. My DD was on 3 meals plus 3 bottles by 7.5 months. She dropped one of these feeds a couple of months later. She still has milk for breakfast and before bed and she's 2.5.

I agree with tooscary - why change what isn't really a problem, just what people/society are telling you is a problem. Frequent night feeding is what babies are designed to do - the composition of our milk is the same as species that feed frequently 24/7. Formula is not! Formula is from an animal that is an infrequent feeder and so its composition is different, so you shouldn't really compare.

I personally dont want to change the night feeding - just want it every 3 to 4 hours rather than 1 to 2....

(Sorry OP to hijack again)... tooscary when did it stop being 1-2 hours?

loveisagirlnameddaisy, sorry, I thought you meant weaned from bmilk rather than onto solids... when you say your DD was having 3 meals per day at 7.5 months, how much was she having? I offer my DD 3 meals per day, plus snacks, but the amount she consumes really varies. Did you do BLW?

LittleWaveyLines- it sounds like we are on the same page.... though you are a bit more confident (and/or knowledgeable!) than I am .

Thanks to all for your replies

mummy2b2011 It depends on the hour day to day whether I'm feeling confident!

I'm lucky in that the breastfeeding support group I go to is run by Attachment Parenting supporters, and I've really got into slings and have met some lovely people through a sling website who are also attachment parents...

(We also BLW - I seem to end up with more food in food fragments than I started with )

If you find a solution, be sure to let me know! Oh, and please join us on the High Needs thread - all our babies are like this there :)

I must confess I'm more a traditional parent so my approach to weaning was to encourage self feeding but to monitor how much she ate. I couldn't get my head round the idea of offering her an apple and leaving her to it! I would give her mashed up cottage pie and puréed pasta bake etc. From an early age she's eaten our food. It was only the first fortnight that I used fruit and veg purées. I did follow a weaning guide so I knew how to balance milk and solids as I know milk refusal can happen and it's still really important up to 12 months.

Sorry, meant to add that quantities varied but probably four or five tablespoons in her bowl, plus pudding. She's a great eater now at 2.5 although I know that's often luck!

mumm2b I haven't read the thread so sorry if I'm repeating.

You asked about when to night wean. Well, you don't have too if you don't want too. For a long time fur us it was a case of if bfing got them back to sleep then I was all for it. Had a lot of friends who night weaned and would be up with a screaming baby for hours, offering cuddles or water, I fed mine and we were all back to sleep within 10 mins. Know that's not the case for everyone though.

As for the teething, have you tried her with ibruprofen and teething gel? Bfing is an analgesic though so she could just be feeding to relieve her pain and for comfort.

If she is waking frequently to nurse and you think this may be a little a little reverse cycling are you offering bfs an hour before solids? If she isn't getting enough bm in the day this could explain the night wakings. Also, have you read 12 alternatives for the all night nurser by Dr Sears?

And lastly, if you aren't interested in CIO there is another way . See if your library has the No Cry Sleep Solution, we used it with DC1 and it helped enornously.