almost 11 months on, we have no routine :(

[PeasforP]

Or rather, we have one that keeps changing, and changing again.
DS is very active but slept alright until 5 months when he learnt to crawl, since then I don't know even where to start, we've had the 'waking at 3/4/5/ am' phases, the 'going to bed at 7.30/8.30/9.30/10pm' phases, the 'two naps a day/one nap a day' ones, etc. Right now it's 6.45 pm and he is asleep, but this is a nap, not his night. He fell asleep in the bath (my fault as I was in with him and bfing).
I believe his ideal routine would be two naps a day, the second one quite late and then bed at 10ish, but I really really like my evenings to be for myself. The trouble is even if he goes to sleep at 8 he then wakes up at 9.30 and I have to feed him, etc.
Perhaps i should just accept that he is up with us in the evenings. I won't do cc, and I am not bothered about him self-settling, we cosleep and he feeds at night which I don't see as a problem. All I want really is to know each day what is going to happen. What would you do if you parent similarly to me (i.e. fluffy parenting)?

How does he fall asleep during the day?

Hi timewasting, he falls asleep either bfing, or in his dad's arms, or in the pram or sling if we are out.

Hmm. DS would only fall asleep bf or in pram, so I made sure we did one or the other at the appropriate time. Usually, it would be bf for morning nap and then out in the pram in the afternoon.
This was just how it evolved though.
I'd concentrate on getting the naps regular, and then see what happens with evening sleep.

The No Cry Sleep solution book is very good and did help us, quite fluffy.

I think I am in a similar situation. DD is 10 mo, no set bedtime. We pat her to sleep when we think she is tired anytime from 7pm - 9pm. She just isn't tired until she has been up a certain length of time after her afternoon nap. She never settles well in the evening, waking often until I go to bed at 10. After 10 she wakes 1-3 times until 8 in the morning (this used to be a lot worse) We co sleep from 10pm.

What time do you get up? I try to always be up for 8. If we get up at 8 first nap is at 10.30ish - 11.15, then second nap about 2.30/3-4. Then bedtime at 8.30ish. Can you try those times? Or similar? Of course sometimes she is up at 7 or we sleep in til 9 which throws the whole day out. I always try to make sure she has 2 naps though, making sure one is over an hour. Clearly her nightsleep isn't great so i'm going to keep an eye on your thread for tips.

Have you a bedtime routine? Ours is VERY loose. Tea, play, bath, bf, play, books, maybe more bf, some more play. I plan on getting a bit stricter with this but it suits us more than having to lay in a darkened room for hours on end trying to get her to go to sleep.

timewasting i read the no cry nap solution, but it's focus was more to get them to self-settle eventually, and that wasn't the issue then (or now, really), will get the sleep one, thanks.

haloflo thanks for sharing, I know the main thing is that if it works for you then whatever! my issue is that it just changes so much, and I'd ideally like some time for myself.
DS is the same, won't sleep whatever the time if he's not been up for at least 3.5 hours (more or less).
Your times are very similar to ours, only he's been getting up earlier and earlier, these days we are up by 7, and then nap 10 or 11 for 1.5 hrs, then obviously he needs another nap in the afternoon, but only a week ago he was having one nap at 1ish and that was it! if he wakes up at 12.30 he won't go to sleep until 5ish, which is really late.
I've really struggled with the night itme routine, which is probably the problem. We do a bath early because it gives him a second wind (unless he sleep during it, like today , then we have dinner, then play, books, more play, books, songs, and so on until he's actually tired. As you say, there is no point in going to bed just to be miserable.
I am pretty sure the problem is our nightime routine, compounded by the issue that dh works in the evenings but not all of them, so he is sometimes here, sometimes we need to have dinner earlier or later, etc. But i really don't know what to do about it!

Could you wake him from his morning nap after an hour max? Then his afternoon nap might fall a bit earlier. I hate to wake a sleeping baby but it might help him go down earlier in an evening. How was he on one nap? Maybe you could drop it soon or at least know early bedtimes are likely to be here soon. We all need time to ourselves!

What time do you do dinner? We all eat between half 5 and 6 but if it's going to be later DD either eats alone or DP or I do.

Tonight we let DD play independently and then gave her a big cuddle when she got grumpy and it worked well. She will go all evening if we play with her constantly.

Let us know what you decide to do and if it helps.

Waking him up seems so wrong! he's only been doing the long naps since about 8 months, before he used to do max half an hour so I've been relishing them! But you are right, I might try waking him up if he goes down at 11am.
Dinner time is another issue, I hate giving him food on his own (mainly because there is nothing normally, and we are doing blw) and we end up eating at 7ish. Probably too late.
Hopefully as you say he'll move on to one nap soon and then we'll just start again be fine.

Are you sure he doesn't want bed at 7pm? What time does he wake naturally in the morning? I'd set bedtime at roughly 11-12 hours after that.

Dinner might be too late - you can eat together as he gets older but now while young, earlier is better for him. You can always eat a bit with him and at weekends? We do this with DS.

Also can you give him meals from the night before for his tea?

Hi Iggly, when he was having only one nap a day he was ready for bed at 7ish, but then he wakes up at 5am! If he has two naps, even if the second one is 'early' (say 3.30) he then has energy for way after 7 (having woken up at 4.30/5ish). I think his natural rhythm is wake up at 8ish, nap at 11, then another nap at 5pm and then bed at 10pm.
It seems to me that he wakes up just before twilight, which is of course getting earlier and earlier, now we struggle to stay in bed past 7.30 (having been awake, feeding and generally playing for about an hour.

I'd stick with a 7/7.30pm bedtime and 7/7.30 wake up. He might be overtired hence waking up at 10pm. There's also a developmental leap which makes babies this age wake up earlier and in the night then take a while to settle down. We've found the best thing to do was treat such wakings at night time, keep up bedtimes and then DS settles down again.

What about a nap at 11 then one at 3pm? My friends DS had that routine with 8pm bed and 8am wake. If he woke at 5, theyd keep him in his room - sometimes a feed would sort him, sometimes not. DS was 6am-6.30pm with a nap at 9 and 12.30/1.

Have you got blackout blind for his room?

I would go with what Iggly says. I'm afraid you can't really let a baby dictate when he goes to bed (well some mums would say it's all up to the baby, but I'm not one of them), you have to lay out that routine.

7/7 is a normal routine and enables them 12 hours sleep a night which is what is recommended. I would also advise giving him a longish nap just after lunch - up to 2 hours if necessary. Wake him up from his nap by opening his blind and taking his covers off so that he is allowed to wake up naturally before you go in and fully wake him.

If you let him sleep after 3pm, in my experience he won't want to go to bed at 7pm and this could be why he is staying awake until 10pm.

Start getting him ready for bed at 7pm with winding down time. Start with a nice relaxing bath, then pjs and a cuddle with a bedtime story and a warm drink.

He might wake up in the night but just resettle him and in time he'll get used to the routine you've made for him. Keeping them awake during the day is more difficult, esp when travelling so 5 or 10 mins generally won't do any harm but any longer than that, esp after 3pm and it kinda cocks up your evening routine.

The baby will fall into any routine you set for him and eventually you get to know if he needs 7/7 or 7/7.30 and if he needs longer or shorter afternoon naps. Gradually he'll drop his afternoon nap so by the time he's going to school he probably won't need one at all, but the late afternoon is always a bugger to master as they try to fall asleep at around 4pm - even my 8yo does it. Can't say I blame them but like you said, you need a bit of time by yourselves in the evening.

Hi there

Just a thought, if you have the energy, but you could start writing down roughly what happens each day and night and after a week or so, you may start seeing a pattern emerging or spotting trends which then help you formulate a routine which suits you.

I would suggest that you try for an earlier bedtime than 10pm as he will eventually need this and its harder to break a habit the older they get. I was pretty routine-focused so not an overly fluffy parent (:)) and I used to work along the lines that 7am-7pm was day and 7pm to 7am was night and treat each 12 hours accordingly (ie only feed during day, try and schedule sleeping during day so that it wasn't excessive and likely to impact on quality of sleep at night).

I think at 11 months if you want to slowly work towards a routine of sorts, you need to start implementing those changes now. It really does depend on what you're happy with.

Iggly, I'm making a blackout blind right not, in fear of 4am waking in the summer!
Rubbarb and Loveis, thanks for that, interesting to see it in the long term, I guess you are right that it would not be good to be going to bed at that time when at school.
I just today started doing what you suggest loveis, keeping a diary, will see if I actually get to do it everyday.