The 10pm - 7am stretch ... what to do...?

[chocciechip]

I am very confused by DH's sleeping. She's 4 and a half months old now.

We've just returned from 5 weeks in South Africa where we were staying in a cottage in my family's garden. She'd be bathed ~7pm every night and then we'd try to settle her to sleep in her pram for the evening in the main house with my family. Not ideal because of lights, noise, heat and lots of people. She would often not sleep and end up sitting on our lap at the dining room table while we ate our meals.

We'd generally head back to our cottage at ~10pm. If she was asleep, we'd try carry her across sleeping. Then we'd change her nappy and put her in long sleeve vest and warm gro-bag to accommodate the room temperature due to air conditioning. Feed, and then to bed. She would sleep through every night right up to around 7am or later - every night for the five weeks.

We're back, and have a strict gentle bedtime routine and she settles to sleep by 7pm every night (bath, tummy rub, a bit of play, feed and sleep). I have tried to 'dream-feed' her at 10pm and she does nurse, but wakes again at ~2.30 and again at ~5am.

I tried to skip the feed and leave her to sleep, and she woke at ~1.30 and then at 6am.

What can I do to try and get her to sleep as she did in SA? I am considering waking her properly tonight at 10pm - lights on, nappy change, feed - just to see what happens. But I am very worried we'll have screaming baby refusing to go back to sleep.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Not sure but maybe it might just be a coincidence the change in sleeping pattern has coincided with your move? I've heard that around this age babies can wake more due to changes in brain development? My dd is 6 months and seems to go through little phases of sleeping right through or waking up in the night for an extra feed.

Sorry that's not very helpful in giving you advice on what you can do. In my own experience I've found there's little I can do to alter dd's sleeping/waking pattern once she's in bed for the night - I just feed her if she wakes and put her down again and hope that the next night will be a magic sleep through

Maybe someone else will be along with some actual tips for you

Google the 4 month sleep regression - at 4 months it's normal for sleep to go to pot, even for normally fabulously sleeping babies.

And then again at roughly 6 week intervals for the next few months...

If you are hoping that she will sleep from 10pm - 7am, why are you trying to settle her at 7pm?.

Btw I think that if you have skipped the dream feed and dc is waking at 1.30 and then at 6 that's probably not actually too bad, especially if she goes back down after 6. I know it's not easy but I just mean in comparison some people have 2 hourly wakers for months.

For me, personally, I love having my evenings back, and I would rather dd asleep by 8pm and I get woken early, rather than continuing to entertain a baby until 10pm or later like you were in SA. I love eating the evening meal with just me and dh.

Yet again, no actual useful advice or tips from me, but I am trying to make you feel a bit better. I worry a lot about should I be doing this? How can I act differently to change this? But sometimes I think it's a bit futile and we should just accept things as they are and try to enjoy, even if we are fucking knackered and my baby has me wrapped around her little finger

I agree with Sauvignon Blanc.

4 months is v young to expect long stretches of sleep. Choose the bit of the evening/night you most value a stretch of sleep in and prioritise that. You could keep her up longer in the evening and then you might get a bigger stretch when you actually want to sleep.

Lots of babies this age are waking and feeding every 2-3hrs or more round the clock. It's normal, and will pass as they grow older .

My priority was to get sleep at night and DH liked having time with the baby in the evening.
We kept babies up in the evening and DH would bath them at 10ish then I would BF and he would take them up.
I never fed my EBF babies at night, they would wake at 6ish.

I'm settling her at 7pm because she gets very little sleep during the day despite my best efforts and this worries me (another thread, I think). She wasn't napping in SA either.

I hear what you're saying about most babies waking anyway at this age, but what has me baffled is she happily did that long stretch in SA and then stopped the moment we got back here. I'd expected her to continue especially because she is now getting a few hours more sleep (I thought the more rested, the less overtired, the more sleep etc.). (I know I was lucky but it was really very nice .. she slept through even on the nights we did settle her at ~8pm before carrying her across).

Part of my confusion with the wakening (if I don't dream feed her at 10pm) is whether I should be feeding her then or just trying to settle her without? She wasn't getting night feeds in SA, and I don't want to shift part of her calorie intake to nights unless necessary because I am imagining that might build a habit which I'm loathe to do if I am wrong. But I can't tell if the wakening is hunger or not. (Obviously if it is I'll feed her).

I'll google the four month sleep regression and see what that has to say...

We spent a month in Australia recently and DS was sleeping through-similar hours to what you describe. Since coming back his sleep has been all over the place and I'm not sure if it's the four month regression thing and just a coincidence with our travel. I do think the warmer weather has something to do with it.
DS was three to four months old when in aus and we've been back in the uk for a month now and up every 2-3 hours each night. We had our first midnight -7am stretch last night and have our fingers crossed for a repeat performance tonight.
Hope things settle down for you soon...!

I'm wondering now if it might be light related..? When she wakes at 6 she doesn't go back to sleep:that's it for the start of a day with no naps and lots of crankiness. But here she is waking up in the dark and no natural light whereas in SA we flung open the curtains to sunshine...

Am now wondering if turning on my SAD lamp at that time would help her.....

..oh, and in our case it wasn't warm weather related because I set the air conditioner to cool the room to 18`C just like here....

To be honest, and I hope this doesn't come across wrong when typed because I genuinely mean it in a helpful way , with my first DC I spent all the time over-thinking everything: trying to find a reason for every little change in his pattern, trying to control stuff, trying to 'fix' problems. With DCs 2 & 3 life has been more hectic generally and we've tended to just roll with it, confident in the knowledge that whatever the current issue is, this too will pass with time. I don't have time to fret over every little thing. The latter approach has been a lot less stressful than constantly battling against whatever the baby's choosing to do.

If they don't sleep during the day much, they're probably not tired. If they're waking and seem hungry feed them (actually, do it anyway, often it works ), if they need rocking to sleep and putting down asleep then that's often quicker and less stressful than trying to 'teach them to self settle' or other nonsense that's often spouted. With number 2 she slept in my arms all evening from 4-6 months, as she liked being with a person and woke if put down. DH or I just watched TV. It passed, by 7, 8, 9 months she was doing something different. At 11 months she started waking more during night and fed every 1-2hrs. Overnight at 17/18 months she stopped feeding at night completely, just after another month when I thought I'd be feeding her hourly for the rest of her life. I did nothing different. She just grew and changed.

Honestly, they all get through it and learn to go to bed on their own and sleep all night most nights eventually. 4 months is nothing, parenting is a marathon not a sprint .

Kellymom on wakeful 4 month olds and sleeping through the night.

The book "What Mothers do" by Naomi Stadlen is a very reassuring read that I would heartily recommend.

..oh, and in our case it wasn't warm weather related because I set the air conditioner to cool the room to 18`C just like here....

did the air conditioning make a noise? when I have stayed abroad the air conditioning has always been a constant background drone. Maybe the white noise helped her settle there? pop a detuned radio on quietly in her room?

although I would like to report that my 6 month old was doing 12 hour nights at 4 months, with no real effort on my part (ebf) but now sometimes wakes every 2 hours overnight! I think they go through phases. we have good weeks and bad weeks now.

There was a drone ... I might try some white noise and see if that makes a difference.

I decided to not wake DD at 10 last night because she was deeply asleep and she instead woke at 12pm (I fed her), 2am (I didn't feed her but it took until 3am to settle her), and then 5am (another desperation feed by me which lasted all of 2mins).

I myself haven't slept since 3am and I am punch drunk with a baby that doesn't sleep during the day, but does grizzle and grump all day - with tiredness I think. She won't lie on a mat or sit in a seat or anything ... needs constant picking up.

I also have a contract I need to complete (self-employed and no maternity leave). If I can't snatch hours of work here and there or I am so tired I can't cope I'm in trouble.

So I think I can't just ride it out - as much as I would like to - and need to do something. But DON'T want to do controlled crying.

Feeling a little in despair at the moment. Will def wake her tonight and see what happens but it could make things even worse.

Gosh you sound tired .

Can you put her in a sling during the day? She sounds like she wants lots of close contact and lots of babies will sleep that way whilst in movement. I've met lots of babies of this age that won't be put down and slings can be a sanity saver, as they free up your hands. Her behaviour sounds totally normal. Tiring, but normal. Unfortunately you can't make them grow up any faster. Controlled crying is strongly advised against for babies under 6 months even by people that advocate it because night waking and feeding is usual and expected for babies this age. Do you have a DH/DP who can help? Would feeding her straight away at night settler her faster than being fully up for an hour? You sound like you need to do whatever you can to get sleep. Have you considered bedsharing?

What sort of childcare do you have for when you are working?

I don't have childcare, and no family near me to help out at all. I am self-employed and cut back on work so I could keep my business relationships going doing about 2-3 hours a day while DD was tiny. If I had taken gov maternity pay I could come out of 'maternity leave' unemployed with clients moved to other people and we can't afford that.

I've just been trying right now to settle DD for a nap. I have rocked her to sleep 5 times (over the last one and a half hours) and every time I bend to put her in her crib she wakes and cries. She is very very tired.

We bought a sling on advice of others and she'll have none of it - screams the house down when we put her in it. She likes the Baby Bjorn (facing outwards) but won't sleep in it. Nor will she sleep in her pram. I could drive her around for three hours every day, but I wouldn't be getting the time I need to do some work.

If the 2am feed was hunger .... why then did she settle for another two hours, and then only feed for 2mins when she woke at 5am?

DH is full time employed. Does what he can at nights but is also going to work shattered.

Bottom line, apart from work, is I don't think the lack of sleep is good for my baby. She's extremely grizzly. On the rare occasion she has slept (yesterday she napped for 30mins after I settled her over and over again for 2 hours), she is a much happier child.

I can see you're in a really really difficult situation both practically and potentially financially .

I don't think it's realistic to expect to be able to do 2-3hrs work a day whilst looking after a baby. Childcare is fulltime work, that is why people pay for it. Most of us who've had babies recognise that when they're small with some children you just don't get a mometn to yourself. It's hard, but it's the way it is. If you need 3hrs of childcare a day is there a local childminder or nursery you could use?

Breastfeeding is about more than hunger. It is thirst, comfort, a cuddle, being close and feeling secure. It is normal for babies to wake every couple of hours and also normal for some feeds to last just minutes whilst baby reconnects or quenches their thirst.

Most parents have one partner working fulltime. The reality is that the early months are knackering whether you're the parent that stays at home or works. It's tough, but it will get better.

I would imagine when she sleeps you relax a little too. Do you think she could be picking up on your frustration or tension?

I hope you find a solution soon.

WollyHead - just wanted to thank you for your lovely, sensible advice. Such words of wisdom! I have been looking at various posts to help me find some answers to my 6mo DD's sleeping issues. You are so right - the nights I just go with it, dont look at the clock when she wakes etc, seem so much easier than the nights I try to 'fix' her. I am very lucky in that even if she wakes 3 or more times during the night, 5 minutes of feeding will send her straight back to sleep.

chocciechip, good luck with it. I have been reading No Cry Sleep Solution. Have found bits of it useful and it is written in quite a positive way. I would second reading What Mothers Do. It is a great book and I often go back to it when I am feeling overwhelmed by motherhood. May be worth persisting with the sling for a bit. I used a Close carrier and used to feed my DD to sleep in the sling for day time naps. She would always cry when I put her in but would settle after a bit, especially with some boob in her mouth. She would then often sleep for an hour or more and I could sit on the couch and get on with my studying.

Glad it helped Filey . Those early weeks and months can be so tough and it feels like it'll last a lifetime. I remember thinking my life had ended first time round .

Getting rid of the clocks is a great idea. It's so tempting to sit there staring at the numbers tick by, but it doesn't help, and without them it all just sort of blurs into one. Some nights with DCs 2 &3 I didn't know how many times I'd woken nor for how long. That was easier than being able to write it out in minute by minute detail.