Am I being cruel to take away his nightime milk?

[Jasper]

My little boy is almost three. He is a good sleeper, goes to bed at about seven thirty and usually sleeps about twelve hours. However we got into the habit from the start of giving him a full bottle of milk to take to bed, which he LOVES. He takes one for his afternoon nap ( not every day now, just a couple of times a week).
When he is tired he asks for milk and a nappy! Obviously there is a very strong association between his bedtime milk and sleeping. Well we had been talking about getting him off his bedtime bottle, for reasons of his teeth and night time toilet training. And also for a general feeling he is getting a bit old for it. ( but I am not sure about this, it is just a general feeling, hard to explain!)
I do not think the teeth are too much of a worry as I brush his teeth just before he goes to bed and he does drink the milk very fast ( in a few minutes, then falls asleep after another few minutes).It is not as though he takes sips from the bottle all night.
Last week my husband bought some new teats for his bottles which were not exactly the same as his old ones, but they were starting to leak.
Tonight we gave him his bottle with one of the new teats and he went berserk, crying and wailing, saying he wanted his "special bottle". He would not touch the milk with the new teat! ( I should stress that the teats are VERY similar and only vary slightly in appearance. He would not put it anywhere near his mouth!) Well my husband reasoned this was clear proof he was not thirsty ( not that we ever really though he was) and tonight would be as good a time as any to do away with the night bottle. He cried quite a bit, and we did a kind of controlled crying thing with him and he was settled and asleep in about one and a half hours.But he did get very distressed, in an over tired kind of a way.
Well Im feeling a little guilty, and would like your advice.
Do you think we should persevere with no bedtime milk? Or do you think this is a harmless comfort he will grow out of anyway? If so, when? Also, if he still got his bedtime milk would it take much longer to potty train him through the night? We left daytime potty training till quite late ( about 2 1/2 ) and he is totally potty trained during the day now but his nappy is always very wet in the morming.
Thanks so much for your anticipated replies!
Quick, just in case I need to fish the old teats out of the bin!

Lordy, they're such creatures of routine at this age, aren't they? Mine are just past two and a half and also go berserk if we try to deviate from their bedtime routine in any way!
Well, I think that it sounds like his bedtime bottle isn't doing much harm and if he wants it I'd personally let him have it. It sounds like it might be his comfort object and I think it's preferable to let kids give up their comfort objects in their own time, if possible.
If he's not using it during the day and he drinks his milk quickly his teeth are probably ok as you say. I wouldn't have thought it'd have much effect on night time potty training but I don't really know what that entails yet. Good luck- hope tomorrow night is more tranquil, whatever you decide.

Jasper, I still see bedtime milk as part of the routine, and milk is supposed to help us sleep.

My son is six and has warm milk before bed whilst we read his story and my two year old has his special cup (Heinz soft spout - orangey cup) for his bedtime milk.

He drinks at mealtimes with no spout so after Christmas I will be weaning him off the bedtime spout cup. Father Christmas will be bringing him a new BIG BOY cup. And the other will mysteriously disappear.

So, your son isnt too old for bedtime milk (I still have it occassionally!), make brushing his teeth afterwards part of going to bed routine. And it didnt affect my eldests potty training. He too was trained at 2.5 yrs, but had very wet nappies for a while at night, we just followed his lead until they were getting drier and drier.

Please don't go on doing this Jasper. Give him the milk before you clean his teeth, use a bottle of water or at least wipe his teeth afterwards. My daughter had decay in her teeth at 3 but the dentist didn't see it until it was too late to do anything but extract several teeth. She grew up in an area with fluoride in the water, we brushed with fluoride and she still got decay. What brushinging/fluoride did for us was strengthen the outside of the teeth so that the dentist missed seeing decay had started inbetween the teeth. She didn't sip a bottle all night either and her teeth looked fine at your child's age. It was only when X-rays were taken that the real extent of the damage became obvious.

Lots of people get away with a night-time bottle and you may be lucky. If you have to hold your child as they scream or vomit after an anaesthetic (not all do this) it doesn't seem worth the risk. If you want to strengthen your resolve visit home.flash.net/%7edkennel/bottle.htm to see what milk at night can do - the pictures are rather unpleasant.

If you really don't feel able to give it up or clean his teeth afterwards then my website has a diet page to help you reduce the risk www.kidsteeth.ic24.net/page3.html

Jasper, IMO you've already done the hardest bit! I know someone who is still struggling to get her 6yrold to give up the bottle at night, said child wouldn't go on sleepovers incase someone found out! Mt dd still had nightime dummies until 4, and in the end we had to go 'cold turkey' on holiday & say we had left them at home. First night was bad, but rest were fine. We are now saving old dummies to leave for Rudolphs babies, and I'm sure they will leave a little something in return - this tack may work. Try encouraging a cup of milk instead of the bottle, with something like 'as you're too big for these new teats'. Hope any of this helps.

Jasper, When we faced this problem with our daughter we switched to giving her a cup of milk downstairs with us also having a drink about half an hour before bedtime. We sold it to her on the basis that she was being a really big girl having a drink with Mummy and Daddy!. This worked fine after about three days of pain and helps with dry nights as we can then go upstairs read a story and then last thing clean our teeth and go to the toilet. It relly works for us and we've not had one nightime accident or complaint about her bottle since. Good luck in whatever you decide.

We have a similar problem with our two year old, we were getting there with stopping a bottle but now we have a new baby then he insists on drinking out of 'baby bottle' !. We've started to explain now that milk goes after teeth. We go to bed with the milk and read a couple of books with me telling him to drink up (he generally doesn't drink much, he just likes the comfort.) I use the promise of another book to get him to clean his teeth where the milk is swapped for a beaker of water. It probably works 3 nights out of 4, if he's very tired/irritable then he goes to sleep with a bottle - good luck !

I would also suggest that the bottle of milk does make his nappy very wet. So I would try to get him to kick the habbit.... he won't hate you... but I realise it's hard to hear them cry like this. If DH is behind you on this, maybe he can help you do it by keeping your mind occupied, see your son if needed...

At two and two months, my son is still a little young, I think, to do without his bedtime milk totally. He too is very attached to bottles with teats - but just like your son, Jasper, he downs a bottle of milk very quickly.

About two to three times a week he wakes up for a bottle in the middle of the night. But every month the incidence is lessening - and it really doesn't cause me huge problems (he wakes, glugs, sleeps again in 5 mins flat) so I am not resorting to controlled crying, big foolish softie that I am. Wendym's comments on tooth decay have definietly given me pause for thought, however. I did realise that night milk was not good for teeth, but Wendym has really bought home this fact to me.

To counteract the waking-up-in-the-night-for milk, bottle-as-a-night-comforter and the tooth decay pitfalls, I am progressively watering down his milk - and decreasing the quantity. At present he has 5 fl oz of liquid in his bottle and about 2 fl oz of that is milk. Although this means he may end up waking up just for water, my health visitor says babies wake to fill their stomachs, so if there is nothing to fill it, he will get the message eventually. I have to say that over a few months, we seem to be drifting gently in the right direction. So, Jasper, gradually watering down his milk, and decreasing the quantity may be a starting off point for you? But don't let your son see you doing it!

On this theme - is it worth trying to avoid the 'bedtime feed' all together - my son is 8 months and has a large meal at 5pm, then bath & story & milk - then falls happily to sleep by 6pm for 13 hours (yes, I know I am very lucky!), is it worth trying to miss out the milk to see if he really needs it - I am confident that he has enough milk (breast & bottle) plus a balanced diet throughout the day - any suggestions?

One of my dd's has to be coerced into drinking any milk at all, the other would drink gallons...but only at night! I had thought that as the dentist says her teeth are fine this was not causing a problem, but now I've read Wendym's posting I'm much less sure...and too stressed about what I'll see to check out the website. She has never had a bottle, but takes an anyway-up cup (to avoid spillages) of milk to bed. Sometimes she will request several re-fills, and often wakes in the night wanting more. I am sure that this is because she derives comfort from it (especially since stopping breast-feeding), and thus I have been loathe to deprive her. I have tried giving her water, but she grizzles ceaselessly, and can become quite distraught. I had thought that this was just something I would let her give up at her own pace, but I am now feeling v. anxious about her teeth. She doesn't suck away for hours, but will half-wake, glug it down and immediately go back to sleep. She is not thirsty, because when I've toughed it out with water she won't drink it. She is never dry at night, again I haven't worried about this as I know I was late with this too. In contrast her twin decided at age 2 and 9 months that she wasn't going to wear a nappy in bed anymore, and has never had a wet bed (but she drinks much less - day as well as night, and I do worry about whether she has adequate levels of fluids!). There really is no easy answer, since both situations cause me concern.

OK, you scared me into doing away with my sons beaker of milk at bed time. He's 31/2, and last night I explained to him that mummy had been reading about how bad it was for his teeth. He was really accomodating, and we settled for a new routine where he has his bath, puts on his pjs and then comes back downstairs to sit at the kitchen table with me, drinks his milk in a mug and then goes back upstairs to brush his teeth and have his stories before bed. I had previously thought that I would never manage to do it!! Thanks for the advice.

Don't think I was clear enough earlier. Evening milk isn't a problem - so children don't have to give up milk in the evening. When it becomes a problem is if the child falls asleep within half an hour without having their teeth cleaned or wiped afterwards. Our teeth are protected when awake by salive which neutralises the acid produced from food and drink. When we sleep saliva flow more or less stops. Cups are safer than bottles because milk tend to pool around the teeth with a bottle and to stay there longer. If your child is wedded to the bottle the novelty of a straw may encourage them to use a cup.

Some children drink from a bottle until 6 or 7 without problems. As you can imagine I spent quite a while trying to get an answer to the "Why us" bit. Babies who are low birthweight and/or premature are more at risk (mine was fullterm and heavy). If the main carer has bad teeth decay is more likely (hadn't needed anything done for ages but don't know about nursery staff). If mother or child were ill during pregnancy/ infancy there is more likely to be a problem (my daughter was ill a lot the first year). If the child's back teeth are close together cleaning thoroughly is harder.

I don't want to scare people - but I'd rather your children don't end up sitting where mine was.

Lindy 8 months is too early to worry.

Wendy, I've seen your postings on teeth on 'the other site' before, very helpful indeed. But my query for you is, as lots of saliva is helpful in preventing decay, how do you feel about toddlers who sleep with dummies in at night? Does this produce enough saliva to protect teeth overnight?

I will add that my son doesn't have his bottle of milk in bed and he cleans his teeth afterwards (I can't stand the milk leaking from a teat onto the bedding!) I give him water in an Anywayup cup to have in bed.

Obviously if it has sugar or even milk on its bad but apart from that I don't really know Mandy. Probably not as there was a study suggesting children who used dummies had higher rates of decay. I haven't read the full study just the abstract so I don't know if they mixed up those with sweetened dummies and those with unsweetened ones.