please help. 15mo twins waking every hour. exhausted. can't do cc. is there anything else I can do?

[MamaChocoholic]

15mo dts never been great sleepers. currently things are really bad with dt2 waking hourly, dt1 every 2-3 hours. I'm still bf as that is the only thing that nearly always works to get them back to sleep. after midnight I end up co sleeping with them as it's the only way I get enough sleep to function. but I am so so tired.

can't do controlled crying - if one baby cries too much, it wakes the other and ds1 and I really really really cannot cope with three crying children in two rooms at once in the middle of the night.

is there something else, anything, I can do that will help me actually get 2-3 hours sleep in a block?

Bless you I can't imagine how tough it is to have twins but it sounds like you're doing an amazing job. I saw a post on another thread the other day from a lady with twins of a similar age, can't remember which but she got them to self settle by lying down with them on the floor on top of a duvet and pretending to sleep. They played for a while then gradually settled themselves, and she then transferred them to their cots when they had fallen asleep. Sounds a nice gentle approach.

oh poor you. You must be shattered.

Rather than jump straight from bf every hour to cc, could you try gently night weaning? That might help, it did for me certainly (although DS was 6 months not 15).

night-weaning whilst still co-sleeping a la Jay Gordon?
there probably will still be crying though....could you start on a Friday so that DP can let you catch up on sleep during the day if need be?

Could you just cosleep full time with your boobs out? That way everyone might get more sleep?

And remember, this too shall pass...

How much are they eating while awake? Could be they are feeding enough to take the edge off their appetites but not enough to sustain them for long when asleep IYSWIM?

My old standard advice at this point (having been there with my own & others over the years) is try something good & stodgy for supper, mashed banana with weetabix is a good one or porrideg or baby rice with banana. Then top up with a BF. The compex carbs help fill their little tums and keep the blood sugars up so they don't wake.

Hope that helps, you poor thing you sound knackered, can you get back to bed ofr a nap during the day sometimes?

I would try night weaning, which means getting your partner to take over night wakings for a while.

Athing not sure there is a partner around......hope I'm wrong!

If you have a partner can they take some leave and let you sleep in the day time? Are there GPs or a good friend who can do the same? Possibly regularly so at least you know you can get some sleep at a set point on the future?

I don't have experience of any sleep training methods but I imagine there are special challenges to using any of them with twins.

I've been keeping a sleep log for my 4 mo which has meant I've been able to see improvements and focus on these areas. For example she was sleeping for less than an hour after being first put down, then one night she did 1 hour 20, so I am making sure I am in the room after the first hour to shush her if she stirs, and she's now sleeping for 2hrs plus. If we can keep extending that to 12 hours...! It may be too much faff with three little ones but if there are identifiable patterns you may find it helpful to know about them.

Best of luck. It will get better.

Hi MamaChoc. Saw the thread title and wondered if it was you :(

Sorry things are so tough. My DS still doesn't sleep well either. Can't imagine what it's like with twins plus an older one.

I haven't the foggiest what to do about my DS or your situation but just wanted to post in solidarity.

If you are willing to cut out the night feeds, you could try the 'gradual retreat technique' where you sit beside them both and say nothing, make no eye contact and wait on them falling asleep, 'shh' them (not easy when you are knackered in the middle of the night, but it does work if you are willing to see it through). It gets worse before it gets better. I could no longer cope with sleep deprivation but with help of HV advice I managed to get DS (14 mo at the time) to self-settle and not rely on 'mummy milk' in the middle of the night. Took several weeks but well worth it!!

Thanks all for the kind words - somehow it helps!

To answer your questions briefly, I'm back at work, so can't sleep in the day. I have a dp, but one who suffers so much if sleep deprived that it's really not worth trying to get her to take over on any regular basis. If we night wean, she'd be up for taking on a few nights, but I'm not sure how to go about that without waking ds1. The Gordon's method looks a start - can it really work? I know there will be some crying, but I'm ok with that if I'm there to reassure them. It's extended crying that wakes everyone at once and causes multiple grumpiness the next day that I can't cope with!

Rowbot, they do self settle in their cots at the start of the night (well, I sit in the corner of the room, does that count as self settling?). It's when they wake up that they can't settle back to sleep. The duvet floor sounds a lovely idea, but I imagine her twins must have been younger. My pair would just hype each other up running around and jumping on me!

IAGTBF, I do co sleep like that. But it hurts my back, so I try and get some sleep alone (or rather, with dp but no babies) before getting into bed with them both.

Anyway, I think I'm going to try stodgy supper, thanks Bossy. They're not big eaters and dt1 actually prefers veg to stodge , but I can try rice and yoghurt for dt1 and bananas for dt2. And I'm going to read the Gordon's stuff closely CBS. Does night weaning really mean more sleep though? For a while I wasn't feeding them before 11pm. I or DP would sit with them, or rock whilst they went back to sleep. But it didn't stop them waking up in the first place.

Count, so so sorry you're still struggling too. I keep reminding myself this can't last forever, when they're teenagers I'll be trying to drag them out of bed in the mornings. And I keep drinking the black coffee .

lovechoc, if they are really crying hard, sobbing, red faced and distressed, do you still not make eye contact? I don't know if I could do that, but I also don't believe they can fall asleep once they're that upset. In the evenings, when I have tried to get them back to sleep without feeding, I try and calm them by stroking/talking quietly/shushing. It has worked, although not reliably. But if they get too distressed I've always fed as I thought they were too distraught to fall asleep.

Did your DS get incredibly upset and still fall asleep or did he just do the cross/moany crying? If he did, did he calm down before falling asleep or did he fall asleep mid-distress?

Apologies for the detailed questioning, just trying to understand exactly what might happen.

He cried loudly for 5 mins or so and then realised he wasn't getting any attention. I sat beside him at his cot, comforted him by stroking his arm or head, but did not talk to him, nor make eye contact with him. He knew I was there for reassurance which is what this is all about. At 15 months they really do not need fed through the night (unless they are not eating well throughout the day). This is all basic stuff which I'm sure you already know yourself anyway. DS2 just kept waking every 1.5hrs through the night and I just had enough which was why I chatted to my HV and said enough is enough now. She said he was waking out of habit and thought he was on to a good thing because he was getting milk and using me to fall back asleep. He had to learn to self-settle and sometimes you just have to be cruel to be kind. I would not like to think what kind of mother I would have been if I'd carried on being sleep deprived beyond 15/16 months...it's not fair on the rest of the family either when you are crabby/tired with anyone and everyone you have to talk to every day during the day and counting the hours until you can go to bed yourself. I felt like I was existing only just. Glad those days are gone and I'd urge anyone who is having these sleep troubles to get support through this difficult time with LOs. You owe it to them and most of all to yourself. Good luck with whatever method you use.

Sorry, didn't answer your questions fully..when he was crying, DS2 would eventually calm down because he knew I was in the room with him, the crying faded within minutes (nowhere near 10 mins). As the weeks went by I'd gradually get further and further from his cot,but he knew I was still there. It is now possible for me to sit for 5 mins on a stool outside his room, and then just leave to go downstairs and he self settles very well. He is nearly 18 months. I do have to stress though that I was up for two weeks solid at 2am, sometimes 3am (November 2011), just sitting on the carpet next to his cot waiting until he fell back asleep (this could sometimes take 1hr). He'd whinge a bit but took the hint after several nights that I would not be giving him milk. Eventually he just slept through the night and he's a happier baby for it. You have to be committed to this though, or it won't work. It's hard going!

Hi mamachoc

Hows things with the DT's ?

thanks for asking bb. afraid they are as bad as ever. went to sleep at 7, and have each woken once since then, which is generally indicative of a bad night to come. plus 3 out of the last 4 nights one has decided it's playtime about midnight, and starts crawling about the bed chatting and trying to poke the other.

I think the gordon's method is for us. lovechoc, your ideas sound good, but I already know dt1 can get hysterical and stay that way for over 30 minutes, because I've tried ignoring it before. I think for my sanity and theirs I need a gentler method. I will need to pick a time when I've had a chance for a daytime nap so I have the strength to stick to it.

It's my birthday this week, and I am taking the day off work whilst leaving the kids in childcare. I feel quite guilty, but I fully intend to spend half the day asleep, so that thought is helping me keep going :)

Don't feel guilty about having the day off.
People with more family help have little breaks like that all the time. The DC are all well-settled in childcare and won't bat an eyelid. I have a day off to sleep while the DDs are at nursery every now and again, and I swear it's the only thing between me and insanity much of the time .

Happy Birthdsy for ths week!

Having a day in bed sounds a perfect birthday treat.

Could you have a word with your DT's daycare/ re the twins sleeping lots during the day? if they could keep them going more & have no more than one hour afgter lunch they might manage to sleep a bit better. They'll be a bit whingy early evening but hopefully might help.

Is there any way you can let the older one stay w grandparents over a w/e, so they wont be so disturbed when you have to teach the others that nighttime is for sleeping?

Of course it takes longer than a w/e, but it might give you a chance to wait a little before jumping to respond.

I was just going to suggest that! Don't know how old your DS is but he could have a little holiday full of treats with a grandparent?

Could you and your DP take holiday from owrk after that - maybe 2 days each - and still put the children in nursery, so that you can try whatever method you decide to do and keep strong in the middle of the night knowing you can sleep in the day?

I have 4 year old boy/girl twins.

When they were your age I let them feed in the night and co-slept with one on each side. I couldn't have done cc, so this worked for me.

I really recommend you take a look at this yahoo group

[email protected]

It's great for keeping everything in perspective.

I have 2 older dc, so I know what you mean about not waking up other children, you just have to do what works for you.

Have a lovely birthday and don't feel guilty about putting your DC in childcare, everyone needs a break! It will do you some good :)

Agree with one of the other posters, I'm not in your situation and you really have to do whatever suits your lifestyle best (esp with older children to consider). Good luck with everything :)

Just a few thoughts, not sure anything concrete which will help:

1. How much are they sleeping in the day. Some 15month olds need amazingly small amounts of sleep during the day - e.g. 45 minutes - otherwise they are up all night.
2. The night time feeding and the poor daytime feeding could be a very vicious circle. They aren't eating well during the day because of all the nighttime snacks which means they HAVE to eat at night to sustain themselves. Weaning them off the night feeds and upping their solids intakes during the day is definitely something to try. As an early poster said, at their age they do not need food at night.
3. Regular night waking is almost always habit if it happens night in, night out. In your case, it's compounded by probable hunger. On top of that, they don't know how to self settle.
4. Once the night weaning is underway, they'll probably need help in learning how to self settle without a boob in their mouth. There's CC, pick up put down, or gradual withdrawal. For any of these to realistically work, I think you need to tackle them individually in separate rooms if possible - you with one twin, your partner with another and your little boy at a grandparents house? I know this might all sound impossible but once it's over and you're sleeping 8 hours a night, it will be worth it!

thanks all for the suggestions.

our dc don't have any (living) grandparents, so ds1 being away for more than a night is not an option.

Barry, yes, that's what I do too. They each lie with a head on my shoulder though, and for some reason my back is shot lying like this. Perhaps I need to find another position, any suggestions? Sometimes I am awake enough that when one finishes feeding I can roll him/her off and turn on my side, which is much better. I also miss sleeping with DP :( For me, I think I need to find a way to get more time sleeping on my own, then I think I'd happily co sleep for the latter part of the night/early morning when their sleep is lighter.

loveis they have only just moved to one nap a day. they used to have two 30-60 minute naps, and now they nap for 60-90 minutes after lunch. they are normally tired and grumpy by bedtime so I don't think they're getting too much sleep. I agree they are stacking up on the milk in the night. they really don't like stodge, but would eat plenty of fruit like grapes, pear, raisins. is it worth filling them up on that do you think? I suspect they need more high calorie food, but that's pretty much limited to cheese and cream.

thanks for the birthday wishes bossy and lovechoc :)