Ridiculously sleep deprived with naughty 2 year old - help!

[CanIBeABetterMummy]

can anyone offer advise??
I have a girl of 4 who has always slept well, and a boy of 2 1/2 who has only ever slept through about 9 times in his life! He wakes 2-5 times a night, always in a panic and automatically gets out of bed (left the cot 6 months ago as was climbing out) and comes screaming upstairs to me crying in a state. I believe it is crying for attention, like he has withdrawal symptoms from me if he doesn't have his 'Mummy fix' - as soon as i pick him up he's fine and i think it's just attention he wants, but not sure. I put him back into bed and have tried a mixture of getting cross and threatening no playdates the next day etc, or threatening to close the door completely which he hates, or just stroking him and giving water. I am on my knees with exhaustion!! having broken sleep EVERY single night. any tips?? If i shut his bedroom door he climbs on his toys to reach the handle to open it. I have tried the occasional night of Phenergen to give me a break, but cannot do that reguarly. help!
p.s I have onset of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (doctor says) as a result of stress of this and lack of sleep so need to get this sorted! thanks girls...

Can you go supernanny on him and keep putting him back in bed without a word every time he gets out? I imagine it would be hell for a few days but after that he will sleep (in theory), and so will you. I agree that you really need to address it for the sake of your health. Do you have a DP who could do it for you?

Are you sure it's not night terrors ?

Getting cross and threatening a traumatised 2yo is in no way going to help matters.

because there's nothing wrong with him, it's all put on for attention!! enough is enough but he's so gorgeous and loving i keep letting him get away with it by the next day, but low and behold it's night time again and here we go!

Thanks Debka. DP gets so tired and grumpy if i ask him to do it, i feel it's better for just one of us to get like that as he has to work, but he does know how hard it is and wakes each time although doesn't get out of bed to sort my son out. I do minimal talking, but will try to be silent each time like you advise.

See he's 2.5. I think you're crediting him with too much wilyness tbh. My ds2 (also 2) can be a regular pita about bedtime/getting up in the night, but personally I do provide the attention he craves, because at that age I think there is a genuine reason for it. It's not 'naughty'.

Try 'giving in' to him for a few nights, I mean totally, maybe cosleep. That might provide the reassurance he needs and lessen the number of times he gets up afterwards.

I really don't see how depriving him of it can help if it's attention he wants/needs.

birds I suspect because she wants to Supernanny him but wasn't quite confident in her own convictions. Which is why the one person who suggested it got a specific response and we didn't.

Thanks you Birds and Cockadoodle for your suggestions. I've given in to the co-sleeping now and then, and do give him a lot of love and attention, which is why i fear it's my own fault for him getting so clingy, but when he stops crying so easily and starts saying 'no' in a very forceful cheeky way to my suggestions (!) it does make me lose patience with it night after night. His reasons for waking are "because Doggy (toy) was looking at me" or that he's done a poo when he hasn't, or because he wants water, or because he wants a kiss, or because he wants to watch CBeebies (at 3am!).... he is naughty, and clingy and gorgeous and a nightmare all in one!!! how can i stop his crying/waking episodes every night??

ha ha! ok. i will go with it, and perhaps put a mattress in his room and sleep next to him for a bit as it's the getting up and going up and down the stairs that disrupts my sleep so much, and he'll be reassured easily. i just hope he doesn't demand i do this long term! I like to think i'm in charge but my children are very strong-willed and i hate upsetting them too much so i do tend to give in. i'm not the devil you all think i am!! i'm just shattered and so unable to describe the situation properly. plus it's my first time on here, just joined today so it's all rambling out of me like an express train!!!

Sounds like the waking is a habit and he's enjoying the attention if you ask me. I wouldn't agree with threatening or punishing but I think the rapid return (say nothing, but put him back to bed every single time he gets up, even if it's 200 times) would be worth a try. I personally wouldn't cosleep and just assume he'd grow out of it and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a 2.5 yr old to stay or learn to stay in his bed for the night. I don't think that's harsh.

This may be controversial but I agree with with birds but also would take it one step further.

My DS went through a stage of this (has always been a great sleeper from birth) and as we had recently moved countries I gave into his needs. The demands got greater and greater! So yes I do think it was a combination of unsettledness which then he created into behaviour as he 'got what he wanted'

So after a week of 1am needing water, cuddles, food, TV, toys etc etc I carried on giving in to every demand. Sometimes these would go on for hours!

However (here's the controversial bit) so did daytime. So if he went back to sleep at 5am we still got up at 7am, had breakfast, got ready and went for a very energetic walk, trip to the park etc. I didn't allow up all night and then daytimes being chilled in front of TV. We had an hour watching TV together in the afternoon (we both would nap then!) and then it was more freshair and excercise.

About 2 weeks later it resolved himself and he was tired enough to sleep through the night and if he did wake for water, dropped toy etc it was brief.

Maybe look at what's happening during the day?

My ds2 is like this. He sleeps with us. He usually comes in about midnight and I am not actually aware of it. It's really worth it for the sleep. I had CFS for a number of years, and wouldn't go back to it. Also have depression, so sleep deprivation is not good for me. My others sleep through fine so I don't think it's my parenting! I think when he's at school, he will sleep better. Ds1 was a bit like this (not as bad) but the general tiredness of school every day sorted him out.

PS. My ds2 does it even when he's had a very tiring day (he's 3), no nap and lots of walking.

I think he just craves physical touch, he always has. So 12 hours without is too much. When he sleeps in our bed, he just gets in, goes back to sleep and stays asleep all night.

My Dd was exactly the same until she was 3 probably my own fault because we were on our own.. She was the same.. She had every excuse under the sun to get me in there and not to go to bed.. The only way I'd get sleep was to co sleep. I met my new partner and he could see how physically draining it was so decided to take matters into his own (not so emotionally attached) hands.. He put a baby gate on her door.. She screamed the house down for 3 nights solid and I often had to go put her in bed because she was asleep on the floor but within a week she was fine.. And after 2 weeks the gate came off.. A bit of tough love.. She's 5 now and is fine going to bed

OP welcome to mumsnet!

There tend to be two camps here, the co-sleeping lentil weavers and the more traditional mean bitches. I fall more towards the traditional but it really is a matter of opinion I think, just do what suits you, your lifestyle and your children best. There isn't a one size fits all approach, and you will never get unanimity on here!

BTW giving your son lots of love and attention will not make him clingy, it is what every child needs. Don't worry about that one IMO. And no-one thinks you're a devil either, just a mum like the rest of us trying to find your way :)

you have to do with whatever feels best for you, i think all aproaches work as long as there is consistancy. my dd is 6months and 2night was the 1st night i used controlled crying. it was tough but iv know all along that thats what i'll eventually have to do. when she was 10wks i started bringing her into my bed in the early hours as she was still waking up 2 nurse, hoping she wud evtually just sleep thru, this time got earlier and earlier until she was in my bed @ 10pm and was waking up every 2min frm bedtime until she was in with me and she still wakes up!! its got to the point where she wants cwtchs, my bed and my boob! she cant have it all right. i feel its better to CC earlier rather than later and nip this in the bud otherwise i have a feeling dd will be like ur ds.

im tending to agree with debka more than birds on this one tho
hope you get it sorted soon hun x

I actually don't fall into the co-sleep camp but do agree with birds on this one!

Even my sister who lectured me for hours for co-sleeping with DS for 4 weeks during this period is co-sleeping with her newborn. I'm resisting the temptation to tell her 'she's making a rod for her own back and encouraging him to be pathetic'

I have done rapid return since when there have been periods of waking but I think that's because it's been a different situation, like we having had any major upheavals so there's not been a possible 'reason' iyswim?

As I said above though this has been periods of poor sleep, mostly DS has slept through from birth and these periods only happen every couple of months for a week or so.

birds shes more 7mo than 6 and she only cried for 20min and i went in 3 times to soothe her, i wud never leave her cry like ur supposed to do with CIO. i dnt mind her waking in the night its the fact that she WONT sleep unless cuddled thats the problem. i appreciate your post but feel like what im doing will benefit us both in the long run, are you one of the lucky ones whos babies settle on their own all night?

Hia CanIBe. Sending you loads of sympathy. Sleep deprivation is so horrid. I'm trying to think what Dr Tanya Byron would have said about this sort of thing. I used to watch her programmes a lot when my DD was younger. What I mainly recall is that Dr Tanya decided on a plan, and then carried it out ruthlessly for several nights. The continuity was the important thing - one or two nights would not fix the unwanted behaviour...you had to keep at it. I reckon the Super Nanny approach would work, as long as you did it night after night.

I had a similar problem when my DD moved into her first proper bed, aged 3. She realised that it was easy to keep on coming downstairs (prior to this she obviously thought the cot bars were too high to escape from). Bribery, reasoning, cuddles, nothing worked, and we became desperate for a break. So one evening my DH and I held her bedroom door shut. We held, and held, and held, our strength against hers. It was an awful moment but a critical one for me. Eventually she broke down in tears, defeated. We had shown her we were stronger. The problem was solved because she was so afraid we would "lock her in" again. Arghh that sounds so cruel. But it put an end to all conflict...maybe you could try a similar approach (although I realise your DS is a bit younger). I really do think you must put your need for sleep high on the agenda.

You have my sympathy.
My 27 month old DD has been a terrible sleeper.

We used Millpond to help last year . Their advice was very quick bedtime routine, little stimulation at that point, 1 or 2 books, quick cuddle and lie down awake in cot. Stay with baby til asleep. If baby pops up and wants to be picked up then shush and lay back down repeating "Mummy stay with you if you lie down". If they keep on standing up then leave the room for 5 seconds and return repeating" Mummy stay if you lie down". This has to be stuck to so they realise that if they want mummy to stay they have to oblige by lying down and trying to sleep. Have to repeat in the night as well and stick with it.

Was awful, won't lie about that. Never wanted to do CC or CIO and never did with elder children. But DD was requiring regular bf and rocking which I was standing up to get back to sleep - she never liked co-sleeping with me and would be even worse if I tried (happily co-slept with elder children so that is not an issue at all) So..I did it, never left her on her own for longer than 10 seconds if I left the room and took ages and sort of worked but not a miracle cure.

Now a year on I think I need to return to them for an update. DD is in a bed so much easier to climb out. Having a very bad spate of crying in the night time. Nothing works, tried co sleeping (every time she rolled against me she would wake up crying and couldn't get comfy again for ages), tried sitting next to her bed, sleeping on floor. Last night we were awake from 12.30 - 4.00. Even if I am by her bed shushing her she is crying. Heartbreaking but do not know what I should be doing.

Every child is different and it can be hurtful to face criticism for the situation when you are just trying to help your child. I gave up on getting a good night's sleep a long time ago - I just want her to sleep for her own health and development - she is a zombie half the time. Until you have had a really terrible sleeper it is difficult to imagine what goes on at night!

good luck and let us know what works!

Know this might not help greatly at this stage but my DS did not really settle/ properly sleep through until he started school at 4 and a half, a year on and we still have the odd unsettled night but nothing like the sleep deprivation we had for the first 4 yrs. What helped (after we tried every possible option mentioned above and more) was changing our mindset rather than his many habits ( though I loathe to label these as habits) - he just needed us to feel secure. As soon as we accepted this and just went with the flow a bit more to do whatever it took so we all got some sleep (including co sleeping, taking it in turns with DH and using weekends when we are both not a work to have a lie in alternately and recharge) then we all started to feel better (still tired but more accepting rather than feeling like the battle was still ongoing).

It will get better and having been there I do sympathise. Just look after yourself as best you can for now and minimise your stress trying to find a solution, sometimes there just isn't one! Very hard for a control freak like me to accept, but so much easier on myself when I did!!! Good luck :)