Early EARLY starts

[Snowsister]

DS2 is 17 mo and has finally started "sleeping through" from 7pm until 4am which is fantastic but a very very early start for us.

We have tried everything but he will not go back to sleep after this time.
We have tried putting him to bed later than 7pm but he still wakes up between 4 and 430am.
We tried bf and then resettling.
Milk from a cup then resettling.
Rocking and resettling.
Ignoring him for up to 40 mins (very hard he screams the place down)
What else can we do?

He is up and running around from 4am until 7am when DS1 (4yo) wakes up.

Its hard to find things to do during this time that are not too noisy. The days Im home he naps from 8am until 845am when I do school run. the days he is at childminder he has no morning nap and then 1hr or so after lunch. At home he naps for up to 2 hrs. He is exhausted by 5pm.

Any suggestions?

Definitely think you're on the right track. Some really good advice from other posters. Just to give you some perspective, at that age my daughter was on 45 mins a day in order to sleep 7-7 at night. She had dropped her nap completely now at the age of 2, and sleeps really well (bizarrely for longer now than before - sometimes 13 hours a night). I think the timing and balance of naps really affect some children - if I try to give my daughter a short nap in the day she won't sleep as well at night; without a nap she'll happily sleep 13 hours every night. Strange! :)

Ive heard that the naps are really important to get right for the main sleep. DS2 is now on 1.5hrs every day and has adjusted really well.
Last night he went 6.30pm-3.20am
I went in and told him "sleep time" and went away.
He screamed for 20 mins.
I went back in did the same and left.
He went back until 6.30am

So I think no more milk feeds or cuddles, he has to learn to settle himself if he wakes up early. Is this too harsh? or a good plan?

IME - and unfortunately my experience of early walkers is extensive! - temporary sleep deprivation is your friend here. Firstly, definitely cut those daytime naps down. Don't let him fall asleep after 2pm. Then, personally, I'd keep him up late for 5 consecutive nights. Until you go to bed if you possibly can. After 5 nights move bedtime half an hour earlier every other day. You will probably lose the will to live and so might he but it's temporary, it really does work and is worth it in the end. My utmost sympathies, OP, because I think extreme early starts are much worse than late nights.

INeedADollar, thanks for your suggestions and sympathy!

We have tried keeping him up later. It made no difference other than annoying his brother.

DS2 is so exhausted by 6.30pm and we go to bed before 9.30pm because of the early wake ups so Im not sure that would work for us. Thanks for the suggestion though, I will bank it for later if nothing else works it may be worth staying up late to do.

Jiltedjohnsjulie - local library have now found me a copy of the Pantley book! picking it up Saturday. Im hoping it is the answer.

We have had this on and off with dh 11months for most of her life tbh.We are currently on 6am which is great compared to previous 4 ams

I have found extra daylight works but obviously can only do this in the summer.
I also find the naps can make a difference,getting it just right,not too long or short.
Dont rule out later bedtimes.I know it makes no difference if they have a late night but several late nights seems to make a difference,they are easier to settle back down when they wake early thus breaking the habit.

One tip is to take it in turns with dh,we do this and it makes a real difference to how you feel.When its my turn i know it wont be tomorrow and i sky plus things to watch when i am up. It also means that i dont have to go to bed really early every night.

Can I ask how many late nights you kept him up for? We have had to do at least 5 consecutively to reset DS's sleep clock as its the cumulative sleep deprivation that makes it successful. We had a top sleep psych involved who suggested it, I thought she was mad but it did actually work.

INeedADollar - only a couple, as it didnt work we didnt continue. So you reckon 5 nights would do it? Maybe we should give it another go. How late would you keep them up? ledkr thats a good idea about taking turns. We do that in the morning at the moment.

DS1 would want to stay up too.

Last night DS2 slept from 6.30pm until 5.30am. Big improvement, we are definately getting there

Just need to get him to sleep until 6am. To me 6am is when the night ends and the day starts. Still early I know, but NOT 4AM!!

Just had a thought. We moved him to an earlier bedtime and he is improving. Im a bit scared to move it since its working! What do others think?

If its working - stick with it! If it all goes wrong then you could try other things then.
And yes took us 5 nights, I thought it was going to kill me, or that I'd kill DS but it was worth it in the end. Good luck with it all!

INeedADollar Bet those 5 nights were the longest of your life! Glad to hear your DS improved. How late did you keep him up? How late does he now sleep in the morning?

Last night DS2 slept 6.45pm until 4.30am. Settled him back until 5.15am.

Ive just read back on this thread and can definately see progress even though it didnt feel like it at 4.30am this morning

We kept him up until about midnight to begin with and worked backwards. He now sleeps 9-7 which is much better. Sometimes i have to wake him for school and once a month or so he will have one 4am start but on the whole it's all much improved. You are making progress, well done!

Thanks. Im going to file that idea for the future.

We had a chat about it all last night and we both decided that, on balance, we would prefer to have our nice quiet evenings than have them both running around til 8 or 9 but have an extra couple of hours in bed in the morning. We just must be getting used to this early rising stuff now.

DS2 is pretty much "sleeping through" from 6.30pm until 5am now, so really we cant complain too much!

Update:

Last night DS2 slept 6.30pm until 540am.
Anyone else with an early waker follow the advice on this thread.

It works

Have things continued to go well Snowsister? DD is a long-term early waker and I feel we've tried everything. The nap info here is interesting, going to try capping her sleep at an hour and go for the earlier bed time.