Almost 5mo still waking every 2 hours to feed. Any ideas?

[ATruthFestivelyAcknowledged]

DS is almost five months old and wakes every 2 to 2.5 hours overnight to feed. We've tried settling him with cuddles, singing, rocking, white noise, etc etc, but once he's woken in the night he will only go back to sleep if I feed him. Actually, that's not quite true, he'll sometimes go back to sleep on our shoulder, but as soon as we try to put him down again he'll cry until picked up or fed. Even if picked up, he'll only last about 5 mins before crying again (presumably for food)

The health visitor suggested spacing out daytime feeds to get him used to going for longer between feeds and I'm successfully feeding every 3 hours or so during the day, but the night time feeds haven't changed at all. She keeps telling me "there's no physical reason why he can't go for five hours or longer at night", well, no, I know there's not, but what the hell do I do to persuade him he should?

Personally I would be trying to feed more often in the daytime in the hope that this would stock him up for the night! In fact that's what I'm trying to do with DD (7 months) to encourage her to sleep for longer periods at night.

Have you tried co-sleeping? That's how we are coping with the "cries-as-soon-as-you-put-them-back-in-the-cot-and-it's-3am" thing. It means we all get as much sleep as possible (also have an older DD). And some nights she actually spends all night in her cot - other nights mostly in our bed. So I just think she sometimes wants us close, and sometimes doesn't, and we aren't creating a rod for our backs blah blah blah.

Are you me Wigeon? Instinct is screaming 'feed him more often in the day' but because the health visitor said to space them out DP is currently convinced this is The Thing To Do. Co-sleeping definitely makes the feeding/sleeping easier for me, but DP is worried we're worried that will set bad habits and that DS will get used to being next to me and feeding whenever he wants to rather than learning to go longer.

If you've been around Mumsnet more than 5 mins you will have heard of a gazillion HVs who give truely rubbish advice (there are some who appear to give sensible advice). On proper, scientific things (such as the safety advice around preventing cot death etc) I seek proper advice. On all other aspects of parenting I generally seek advice but then make up my own mind. And for me this would squarely fit in with something I'd make up my own mind on.

I can't see how feeding him less during the day is meant to "teach" him to go for longer periods at night.

I also think young babies "ask" for things because they need something. So he's waking up in the night because he needs something. Maybe that's milk, maybe that's just a bit of reassurance and to have a parent nearby. Or they need a burp. Or something else. Either way, all of those are valid needs (including the need to have a parent nearby). I think it's a bad habit to deny a child's needs, not to meet them!

On my very scientific sample of DD2 (currently 7 months), I really feel that we aren't creating bad habits. Some nights she has flatly refused to go back in her cot and so we've brought her into our bed. Some nights she goes 4 hours between feeds and straight back in her cot. With DD1 we spent hours and hours in the night trying to persuade her to go back in her cot because we thought that's what we ought to be doing. I don't know why we bothered. She gradually became a very good sleeper and still is. I think DD2 will sleep for longer periods when she is ready and in the meantime we are doing what means we all get as much sleep as we can.

I don't know if you've seen the Dr Sears website - he's a proponent of attachment parenting and co-sleeping. Some useful info is here.

I think a lot of parenting angst would be eliminated if more parents followed their instinct. Why do you think your instinct exists?

DS is 4 months and sleeps from 8pm-4am without a feed, as a rule. BUT I feed him about every 1.5hrs in the day if we're at home. He can go longer if we're out etc but he's definitely happiest with frequent daytime feedings and I do think this helps him sleep.

Yes, I've read about the rubbish HVs but sadly DP hasn't. My catchphrase at the moment is "he's just a tiny baby; it's my job to look after him" whereas DP's is "we need more routine"

The HV's theory with spacing feeds was to get him used to taking more in each feed (rather than 'grazing') and to get him used to going longer between feeds. This has certainly worked during the day (his feeds are much longer and he's definitely taking more in each feed than he used to) but has made no difference whatsoever to night feeds.

I know I sound like a wimp and should just bring DS into my bed, feed him as often as he wants feeding and repeat 'this too will pass' when sleep deprivation hits, but I feel like I've made all the decisions so far and it hasn't 'worked' iyswim so now I need to let DP have his say too. I do however, love your statement I think it's a bad habit to deny a child's needs, not to meet them so I will use that the next time we have a 'discussion' about the best thing to do!

I do wish babies came with a manual. I constantly feel like I'm doing the wrong thing.

Sorry, X-posted. Thank you. Maybe I'll try more frequent feeds for a week or so and see if that works.

Ok, I think you need to work out, as a couple, whether you are a more routine-y sort of family (when it comes to babies), or a more attachment-parent-y sort (see the Dr Sears website for much more on that). If you are routine-y, then you can try to get your baby into a routine, and seek advice here about how to do that. If not, then follow your baby's cues, do whatever you think he needs at any particular time, and most importantly, don't feel guilty if you've chosen this path.

At the moment it sounds like you are half-heartedly trying to be more routine-y, and sometimes being more attachment-y, and nothing is working.

Lots on the Dr Sears website about attachment parenting not creating dependent children and bad habits etc.

Can you tell which end of the spectrum I'm on?! But I respect that you do have a choice to go down the routine route. Incidentally, IME (I have 2 DDs), even an attachment-y approach doesn't mean you have no routine and you live in chaos. In fact DD2 has settled into quite a predictable routine, which is pretty similar to most babies I think, but I have tried to let her set it, with some gentle guidance from me, and if there's a reason to alter it, I just go with that. So if she wakes up at 3am and totally refuses to be put back in her cot, she sleeps with us.

Re manuals: you are your baby's best manual.

Thank you. I think the problem is that I am an attachment-parent-y sort and DP is routine-y

Going to bed - good luck tonight - I will think of you (and the many other mothers awake) at 2am!

Hello OP I've hopped over here to read the advice you've had as you said you're in a similar situation to me. I just wanted to sympathise on the DP point too-my DH is terrified that DD's sleep is already due to bad habits and all day at work he gets an ear bashing about spoiling babies etc. I keep telling him she's too young for bad habits/spoiling etc but he doesn't believe me!!

It could have been me writing this thread! My DS who is nearly 4 months still wakes up every 2 hours throughout the night too for a feed. Currently co-sleeping as he cries if I try to put him anywhere but next to me...I'm absolutely fine with this (being an attachment parenty type) as I think its the most natural thing in the world for a baby to want to be close to his mum, but my DH is very NOT OK with this and mentions it pretty much every day. I believe in trusting my instincts and think i'm doing everything my son needs as he's so happy and content - but DH feels we are spoiling him, creating bad habits etc etc etc. Problems are beginning to emerge because it turns out I am an attachment type, and he is a routiney type. we both independently went on to amazon to buy baby books....i bought sears, he bought GF!! oh dear.

DD was exactly the same. Fed 2 hourly at least until 7 months when occasionally she went 3 hourly. We coslept and I demand fed and hoped it would resolve itself. And you know what? Of course it did. She's a happy, independent, sleep-loving, through the night sleeping 4yr old and has been for a couple of years now. Well she's hasn't been 4 for a couple of years. You know what I mean. She made the transition herself when developmentally ready.

I have a 16wo ds and from birth I've coslept and demand fed. If he feeds in the night, it's while I'm dozing and we're getting great sleep, he's sleeping through actually (feeds 1-1.5hrly in the day) and because his needs are met quickly and adequately, he doesn't resort to crying. It doesn't get that far. And it makes for a content baby and content family. Please bear in mind that some of this is personality and this is the way things work for us. Cosleeping just isn't right for some people and both parents probably need to feel comfortable. I think there's middle ground in situations where parents are differently aligned to certain methods but you have to work them out together.

I think it must be really hard to be a baby. In utero they have food on tap. Constant nourishment. Hunger isn't something they're used to and once born into a strange, foreign world, all they know is that they have an innate need to suck and somehow, amazingly, this suckling makes the hunger go away. Why wouldn't they need or want to do it with alarming regularity? They don't understand Other Food yet and aren't ready to move away from the simplicity of feeding = fixing the problem easily and instantly. Plus, you're expecting them to go from tiny incapable newborn to rolling, crawling, walking, talking, understanding, capable little people. I can't get anything physical done without sufficient fuel. In fact, if somebody asked me to do a hard day's work but insisted I couldn't have even a drink unless I left a 3hr gap between each cup, I'd be bloody thirsty, probably hungry and a lot cross.

And at the grand old age of 30, I still need a cuddle in the night sometimes. Nowt wrong with that.

Just came on here to read the advice as we're in a very similar situation, except DD is now nearly 6 months and still waking every 1.5-2 hours (the sleep started deteriorating around 4 months, before that she'd wake every 3-4 hours). Cosleeping in our bed seems to help except I can't manage it with 3 of us in the bed (get paranoid about covers and pillows) so it only happens on the few occassions DP has slept in the spare room. Everyone said weaning and/or moving her into her big cot in her own room would help, neither did and she's back beside me in her cosleeper crib. I've been trying to just go with it and most of the time that feels like the right thing to do but occassionally I'm so exhausted I think I'll have to try something as I can't go on for much longer. Tried PUPD last night after one of these moments and hated every minute. Now DP's saying "you need to give it time to work, do it again tonight" and I'm wishing I hadn't tried in the first place!

Anyway, hope you resolve your situation one way or another soon and in the meantime sending you and sympathy at 2am (and 3am, and 5am, ...)

Thanks for the tea! Anyone want a leftover mince pie to go with it?

Good to hear I'm not on my own even if no-one has a magic solution. Perhaps we need a different thread LO is waking all the time and DP seems to think it's a problem?

I've also just moved LO back into our bed room 'because we need the space for family to stay over New Year' and am getting such better sleep with him curled up next to me. He did try to 'chat' to me at 3am this morning but soon realised he wasn't getting any response and went back to sleep.

Good luck all

Glad you are getting more sleep with your DS in your bed, ATruth .

I was going to post to say maybe you should post in "Relationships" rather than "Sleep" but you've beaten me to it!

On a serious note, might be worth seeking advice on the breast feeding topic - I am by no means an expert but my understanding is that the more frequently a baby feeds, the more milk you produce, so by spacing out daytime feeds you might actually not be increasing the milk a baby gets during the day. My aim at the moment is to feed my DD relatively frequently during the day (well, frequently for a 7 month old) and offer both sides each time, so that I am getting as much into her as she wants each time. So rather than frequent snacks, frequent filling meals, IYSWIM. But there are actual experts in the science of breastfeeding on the BF boards who would be able to confirm.

highheels - 6 months is pretty young for any kind of controlled crying (which I understand PUPD to be although not sure exactly). Personally I think a 6 month old is waking because they need something (which might just be reassurance of a parent - still a very vital need), rather than because they are in some kind of bad habit.

Have you looked at any threads about how to co-sleep safely / comfortably? We have finally worked out a way where I don't spend all night worrying the baby's going to get smothered etc - bed against the wall (we actually rearranged our room and removed my bedside table), baby next to wall with her head at roughly my shoulders' height, then me, then DH. We shuffle our pillows along so they are not above the baby's head. I wrap the duvet around me so that it's tucked under my side, so the baby isn't in any danger of getting covered, right up round my shoulders (so I don't get cold). She's in her own gro-bag. Seems to work quite well. She does spend some nights in her cot in her room too - just depends.

Agree that weaning and own room are pretty much irrelevant (in the case of both my DDs).

I wonder if there are any studies which show that mothers are much less inclined to favour a routine / controlled crying / PUPD etc than fathers? A whole nother thread to speculate on the reasons for that ...

Do whatever you need to to get sleep ! If that's co-sleeping go for it. If at some point that becomes a problem, then you can sort it out at that time. 5 months is young yet. Toddlers go on waking (not necessarily every 2hrs) for years often. You need to survive with as little exhaustion as possible.

PS Wigeon in our house it was dh that was the natural attachment parent, whereas it was something I learned by watching him and through necessity (to get sleep, to cope with a newborn and toddler -sling!). I think it stems from how we were parented and the ideals of our parents. I was in my own room swaddled within an inch of my life face down under 4 blankets on day 1 home from the hosp, whereas dh slept in his mum's bed until he was 4. After 6.5 years I'm a total convert and just about as AP as they come. Anything to avoid screaming and get me some sleep .

well my 8mo dd3 is still feeding through the night 2 hourly. i'm just going with it and occasionally try and persuade her to go back to sleep. if not, then i just feed. i'm going to go with it for a while longer and hope it improves slowly over time.

i have no answers - the other two were much easier!

wigeon I didn't think PUPD was controlled crying, that's why it was the only method I've tried (for the grand total of 1.5 nights!). The way I've done it is that DD gets picked up and held when she's crying, then once she's settled but not yet back to sleep she's put down again. If she cries again, she's picked up again, and repeat ... Don't know if that's the correct way to do it though

I fed every 1.5 hours in the day at that age and offered water and cuddles at all wake ups except 11 and 5. After a week he stopped waking up for a feed after 11. There weren't any tears but it did mean for that week I was sometimes sat up cuddling him for hours in the middle of the night.

How are you doing HighHeels, Pink, warthog and ct? Enough sleep over the last few days?

Thanks for the additional ideas. Hardboiled, I'd try water, except DS won't take a bottle so that wouldn't help.

Highheels, that's how I understand PUPD. I don't think it's CC and would certainly try it, except... well... to me (clearly not an expert!) it seems like 'rewarding' the crying? Surely if a baby learns that they are picked up when they cry and put down when they stop then they will keep crying? No? Maybe it's just me wanting to prolong cuddles with non-crying DS rather than only holding him when he's crying!

ShowOfHands, I've just re-read your post. Thank you. Like Wigeon you are clearly destined to be a baby care guru. What you say makes perfect sense, fits exactly with how I'm feeling and gives me more confidence in saying to DP all the 'routiney types' that I want DS close and that I need to ensure all his needs are met as quickly and as gently as possible.

I've got to be perfectly honest and say I'm loving having DS back next to me. I'm actually enjoying some of the night time cuddles (especially as he's started liking falling asleep on my chest again, which he hasn't done since he was about three weeks old ) I've also made a point of not checking the time or counting how many feeds I do so that in the morning I only go by how I'm feeling to see if I got 'enough' sleep rather than by how many times I was woken up. DP still clearly wants more routine, but so far I'm managing to stick with 'my way' by ensuring DS doesn't wake him up overnight.

Glad you're loving having your DS close atruth and enjoying the cuddles whilst you can get them. I have to admit that although it's sometimes very impractical, I love the fact that my DD currently chooses to nap lying on my chest as she went through a phase when she would scream if you tried to keep her cuddled in for more than a few minutes, so I'm really enjoying having the cuddles back. Hope you're still getting 'your way' and starting to feel a little more alive in the mornings :)

Well last night DD lasted from bed at 7 through till 11 without a feed (first time she's done that in ages and ages) so all was looking promising (she had been awake at 8.30 briefly though). Then she woke up again at 1, I fell asleep feeding her to wake up at about 4.30 and find her still in my arms and sucking away. Apparently she'd got herself comfy and then reattached herself when she got hungry again :o Only downside was that I'd fallen asleep in a really uncomfortable position! Didn't get much sleep after that as she didn't want to settle in her crib and I was aching from the awkward position so didn't want to stick her back on me, until DP took her onto his chest at about 6am and then we all slept till 8! Tonight she didn't stir at all from bedtime until 10, and she'd put herself to sleep rather than me putting her down asleep from her feed. She then fed for 45 mins so I'm hoping she's tanked herself up for a few hours.

Don't know about the PUPD rewarding crying, I found it too annoying to continue, especially after I'd been stood there for more than an hour on the second night of trying and was desperate to get back to sleep. Seems to me like if it does work it's because baby eventually gets fed up of being picked up and put down endlessly and so goes to sleep to stop it!!

Anyway happy new year to all, hope we all get lots of sleep and enjoy the quiet nighttime cuddles tonight, sure we'll be missing these days when they're teenagers and awake at 3am for very different reasons :)