Struggling with bedtime routine for 12 week old... (Long - sorry!)

[Obsidian]

This is my first post on MN and I wondered if some of you lovely ladies could help me out?! I'm a first time mum to a gorgeous little girl and in most respects she's a fairly easy, chilled out baby. I love spending time with her and she sleeps reasonably well at night (in chunks of 3 - 5 hours at a time). I'm getting up once or twice a night to feed her, which from what I've read on MN and elsewhere sounds normal-ish for 3 months - correct me if I'm wrong! She also naps pretty well during the day (roughly 8.30 - 10, 11.30 - 1 and 2.30 - 4). At the moment I'm breastfeeding her about every three hours, so 7ish, 10ish, 1ish, 4ish, during the day, which works really well and keeps us both happy.

However, we're really struggling with the evenings. Until about a week ago, she was doing what I assumed was cluster feeding, and wanting to breastfeed all evening from 6ish until 10ish. I found this hard going but was managing. Then she started to get really upset when feeding and (while I know some breastfeeding experts will disagree with me) I felt as though she was still hungry even when she had fed for an hour at 6 and 8. The constant feeding was also making it impossible to start a bedtime routine as she was wide awake, hungry, feeding or upset between 6 and 10. I assumed the cluster feeding would tail off towards three months, but as it didn't and she was getting increasingly distressed each evening, we tried introducing a bottle of formula at around 7ish, after her bath/massage/cuddle routine.

This has helped a little and she will now have a sleep between about 7.30 and 8.30, but is then wide awake again until 9/10ish (or sometimes later depending on when she'll feed) when I breastfeed her again before we all go to bed! The other issue we have with the formula is she will only take half the feed at 7ish (90ml) and then falls fast asleep. We put her in her cot, and she then wakes up hungry half an hour to an hour later, finishes the bottle and then stays awake until I breastfeed her later. I know we shouldn't put her down fast asleep, but I'm not sure what else to do! She's obviously tired in the evenings, but just can't stay asleep for any length of time. I try to follow her sleep signals (yawning, rubbing eyes etc.), which works really well during the day for naps, but if I put her down awake before 10pm she screams and screams! So we end up bringing her back downstairs and putting her in her bouncy chair, where she sometimes dozes or has a cuddle with me or my husband.

Sorry for rambling. Basically, I would love some advice on how to introduce a bedtime routine for a 12 week old who is very hungry in the evenings. The idea of filling her up with formula has helped a bit, and we've only tried it about 4 times, but she still wakes up and won't settle between 7 and 10. I realise not all babies go to bed like clockwork at 7 and sleep for 3 hours, but it would be brilliant for all of us if we could at least get her to go to sleep a little earlier each night. I've read a million books and most of MN, and have totally run out of ideas. I don't even know where to start anymore! The tiredness isn't helping of course.. If any of you more rational MNetters could point me in the right direction of helping her learn to sleep earlier, I would be eternally grateful.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, x

Any tips for tonight? Getting worried already! She's binned her routine today and refused her afternoon nap, fed at 2pm and 3.30pm and is now fast asleep - argh! I don't have a clue how to approach bedtime tonight, or whether to bother at all... Sometimes it just seems easier to keep her downstairs with us until we all go to bed, but I don't want to create more problems by doing that.

If you want her bedtime to be 7pm then ideally she should be awake by 5.30pm, so then she can have a quiet play bath finished by 6.15/630pm and bottle started by 6.30pm, hopefully that way she won't be as tired and will finish the bottle and go to sleep.

If you do want to keep her downstairs if you find it easier that is fine, if she is scratchy and tired in the evenings it's always worth trying to put her to bed earlier then you have being doing.

At this age I would say no more than five hours day time sleep eg between 7am and 7pm, although do allow for the days when she is more tired. Feeding three hourly as you've been doing sounds fine.

It seems likely it is more a overtiredness issue at the end of the day.

Thanks for the advice Mrs Wishy Washy :-)

Most evenings she plays from 4.30 - 6ish, then we take her for a bath and give her a bottle of formula around 6.30. She seems tired after that, but really struggles to go to sleep. Tonight we gave her half the bottle before her bath and half after, which took a while, but she finished it by 8pm. We're now in the process of trying to get her to sleep. She's so tired but keeps fighting it! Have tried calm environment, singing, white noise, shushing, cuddling, dummy - nothing's working yet!! I'm sure you're right that she's overtired, but how do we persuade her to go to sleep????????

Thanks again!

Aim for an even earlier bed time so bath just before 6pm starting bottle by 6.15pm. Splitting the bottle sounds like a good idea. Have you tried the next size up teat as it's her only bottle maybe it is exhausting her making her suck harder so you could make it easier by upping teat.

The babies I've found hard to settle are mostly over tired in which cases bringing bed time earlier makes settling easier.

Thanks again Mrs W - we'll try that tonight and let you know how it goes!

We managed to get her to sleep by 9.15pm last night, which is the earliest yet so here's hoping we're getting somewhere...

Ok. I am am not q routine sort of person so you may not find this helpful, but I think if it's stressful, don't do it! If she wants to be downstairs you there's no harm in that- she's too small for "bad habits" and it has to be better than dashing and down stairs til. all hours. Take turns to cuddle her, let her sleep on her dad's chest while you chat or watch tv. That way you can enjoy your evening and have as little stress as possible.

Remember, she'll be a completely different person in a couple of weeks and will want to do things differently. To use a hideous phrase, go with the flow! If it's stressful it's not working and time to try something different.

Hi Obsidian, if she plays from 4.30-6pm, then has a bath and bottle, it means she's been awake for quite a long time, she must be overtired. My DD stays awake for 2 hours max and usually only an hour and a half (she's 15 weeks), I would agree with Seeker, if the bedtime routine is stressful don't do it! have you figured out the time your baby naturally gets tired, they don't have to go to bed early and sounds like your daughter knows what she needs, your routine sounds amazing for that age, my DD only naps in half hour periods in the day, and last night she woke up five times, I am so jealous!

Thanks for the advice ladies.

Seeker, I wish I could just 'go with the flow', and I try really hard to, but I'm just a routine kind of girl! Must be all the years of teaching - I'm institutionalised! I think you're right though to try and follow what she seems to need. Last night we went out for DH's work Christmas meal in a pub, and she was as good as gold - alternating between happily looking around and napping. We all had a great time and didn't get stressed. Maybe we should go out every night!!

The overtired theory sounds quite likely, Mrs W and Paranoid, so we'll try something different tonight. The rest of the day she is awake no longer than 1.5 - 2 hours, so I guess 4.30 - 7.30 is too long! I'll let her have a nap after her 4pm feed today and wake her around 5.30 (if she feels like sleeping of course!) and then try the bath, bottle, story, bed routine, aiming for 7ish. Who knows? I guess we just have to keep trying different things until something works.

Someone today was telling me that 'core sleep' for this age is between 10/11ish and 3/4ish, and anything either side of that is a 'nap', which sort of made sense. During the day DD has a nice feed, play, sleep pattern, so perhaps we should carry that on in the early evening, but with a calmer 'play' time, e.g. story/cuddle, rather than toys and games! Hopefully the 'naps' will start to merge at some point.. I'm so jealous of all the mums at the baby groups I go to who seem to have LOs sleeping through the night by this age. Unless they're all lying of course!!

Have a great weekend everyone, x

My 13 week old has been very like what you describe until really just a few days ago, when she suddenly started settling at 7.30/8. I definitely have to feed her again at 10 & sometimes once else before then so it's not perfect but it's much more settled than it was. She just seemed to decide for herself!