Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Sleep

Join our Sleep forum for tips on creating a sleep routine for your baby or toddler. Need more advice on your childs development? Sign up to our Ages and Stages newsletter here.

Original poster

Sleep problems in children over 5 years old

26 replies

marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 22:27

Hi, sorry, desperate here... perhaps I am on the wrong thread, is there another thread for sleep problems in school age children?

All I see here are people talking about babies and toddlers. I've had 7 years of this, and it's getting worse. DH and I have no private life and we can't leave DD with babysitters any more either. We are exhuasted after the 2 hour+ bedtime process every night. you would think we had a 7 week old, not a 7 YEAR old.

OP posts:
Carrotsandcelery · 25/11/2011 22:33

marykat you are not alone. My ds (7) has massive sleep problems. Are your problems getting your dd to bed or are they during the night as well?

Original poster
marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 22:44

Both. Usually it's about getting to bed, and getting to sleep, especially getting to sleep. She did sleep through the night most of the time between about 18 months and about 2 weeks ago. Last week she was up almost every night, wanting to sleep in our bed. She never slept in our bed as a baby, I really don't know where it is coming from.

And you?

OP posts:
Carrotsandcelery · 25/11/2011 22:57

Our ds has had problems all along really. Going to sleep is not too bad but he wakes a lot during the night. Usually he has had a horrific nightmare or is having a night terror.

He doesn't manage to sleep in his own bed. One of us always has to sleep with him either in the master bed or the spare room.

To help him get to sleep at night ds uses a personal cd player and listens to books on cd after his bedtime story. He usually drops off with his headphones on.

There is a book available that helps children to work through their sleep problems which might help you here It has sections in it where your dd can write or draw etc which helps to engage them with the text.

mawbroon · 25/11/2011 23:02

Do either of your DCs have tongue tie and/or high palate?

There is a suggestion that a high palate can cause sleep apnea. I think ds1 suffers from this.

He is also a complete nightmare to get to sleep. I often wonder if he is scared to go to sleep because he wakes up with bad dreams, or if he manages to stay asleep all night (he is extremely restless), then he feel dreadful in the mornings.

Carrotsandcelery · 25/11/2011 23:05

Not that I know of mawbroon but I will have a look in the morning. I have had a look at the photos on your profile. How did you find out? Would our dentist have told us?

Original poster
marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 23:17

same here, would the dentist have told us? I don't know anything about those things.

I'll go look at that book now..

OP posts:
mawbroon · 25/11/2011 23:17

Depends on your dentist I suppose. Ours has never mentioned it.

I found out through MN. Somebody linked to this site mentioning a connection between reflux and tongue tie.

I made the connection between the two with ds1, and then out of interest started reading Dr Palmer's presentation about sleep apnea. It described ds1 very accurately, and when I looked in his mouth, lo and behold he has a high palate.

DS1 only had a few bottles of expressed milk, didn't use a dummy and was never a thumb/finger sucker. These are common reasons for a high palate. But it is likely that ds1's palate has been distorted by the incorrect tongue motion caused by his tongue tie.

He is 6yo btw

Carrotsandcelery · 25/11/2011 23:26

mawbroon do you mean that bottles, using a dummy and finger sucking are often associated with a high palate?

My ds was exclusively breast fed (refused expressed milk), never had a dummy and didn't suck his fingers or thumb.

Carrotsandcelery · 25/11/2011 23:29

He did have severe reflux though. I will have to have a look at his tongue in the morning.

mawbroon · 25/11/2011 23:30

Carrotsandcelery - yes, that's exactly what I mean.

But in ds1's case, it is likely that his high palate has been caused by his tongue tie.

It can't have been caused by bottles, dummies or thumbsucking because he didn't do any of them!!

Original poster
marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 23:32

looks a bit medical, now googling 'high palate' is this to do with food issues, too? We have lots of those, too. Thumbsucking was huge, interest in food has always been low.

But it's a bit late for me to self-diagnosing, late as in late in the evening and I'm too tired to take it in...

It would almost be a relief to find a medical reason for the fussy eating and sleep problems. I thought children were meant to get easier...

OP posts:
mawbroon · 25/11/2011 23:33

I really recommend that your read Dr Palmers website.

If you are not sure what you are looking for, you may not be able to spot a tongue tie unless it's a really obvious one.

The common perception of tongue tie is that you can't stick out the tongue and that it will be pulled into a heart shape. Yes, that is one type of tongue tie, but the other type, like ds1's is harder to spot.

Carrotsandcelery · 25/11/2011 23:35

Ds has low weight and has to have lunch three times at school to get enough food into him (mid morning, lunch and mid afternoon). They have a small group who meet for extra food mid morning and mid afternoon.

Interesting.

I am off to bed just now but will revisit this once I have had a good nosey at his tongue.

We have a meeting with a Clinical Psychologist next week too so if anything useful comes from that I will pass it on.

mawbroon · 25/11/2011 23:41

Is the reflux resolved Carrots?

Looking back, ds1 has probably had reflux all along, but it didn't come to light until this summer.

The theory is that the tongue tie causes an incorrect chewing and swallowing motion and a lot of air is swallowed along with the food. When the air comes back out of the stomach, in the form of burping, it brings stomach contents with it.

This is different to reflux where the lower oesophegal sphincter is not working properly.

DS1 burps and bloats more in direct relation to how much he has to chew. After eating anything with more chewing in it than a sandwich, he will burp terribly and looks pregnant.

Original poster
marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 23:45

This is turning out to be very interesting. So, the other mum with the child who has sleep problems, also has eating problems? But no diagnosed SN? My DD is doing fine with her school work, has some odd traits but generally gets along well with other children. She is small for her age, but her grandparents (my inlaws) were very small people, her grandfather was only 5'1". So we have put it down to genetics, though DD has never, in my opinion, eaten enough. I am surprised how much her friends eat when they come over. I'm lucky to see anything resembling 3 meals go into her.

As for tongue, I will look, though I remember DD having a huge long tongue when she was a baby. She breastfed, with some difficulty, but lost interest when she found her thumb.

OP posts:
Original poster
marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 23:46

(but we don't have reflux, just lack of interest in food...just read the last post that went up when i was writing my post...)

OP posts:
Original poster
marykat2004 · 25/11/2011 23:47

(I see the other 2 have reflux)

OP posts:
mawbroon · 25/11/2011 23:59

I only just found out about ds1's reflux this summer though. I think he has only become able to properly explain it to me.

He often had a sore tummy and I used to put it down to constipation or his milk intolerence. It wasn't until he protested that it wasn't the same, "YOU ARE NOT LISTENING MUMMY, THIS IS NOT THE SAME" that he managed to explain about being sick in his mouth and the burning sensation.

Fussiest eater around. Small portions before declaring he was full. Of course he is full - of air!!

mawbroon · 26/11/2011 00:09

marykat, no SN in ds1.

He is very intelligent and a little obsessive, so gets very engrossed in a subject until he has completely exhausted it. But that seems to be a family trait Smile

Carrotsandcelery · 26/11/2011 16:43

I don't know if ds has special needs. He has been diagnosed with anxiety and depression and it does affect his life but I don't know if it would be considered special needs. The school have requested additional support as he is considered to be very bright but they are struggling to get him to perform at times (possibly due to lack of sleep).

I have had a look at ds's tongue but I can't really see under his tongue. I don't know if I am just rubbish at tongue observing or if it says it all and it is so tied he can't lift it any further.

Carrotsandcelery · 26/11/2011 16:44

I am sorry, I am struggling to process all of this as I have been up since 3.45am.

mawbroon · 26/11/2011 19:44

Carrots, it will take a long time to think it all through and process it. There is so much information on Dr Palmers website. And, once you get your head round it, it is quite mind blowing to think about the effects of a tongue tie and high palate on overall health.

Feel free to PM me either of you. Or actually, anybody that might be interested.

Anxiety and depression could very well be side effects of sleep apnea.

mawbroon · 26/11/2011 19:57

I am currently writing a small presentation about DS1 to show to any health professionals we encounter. I have copied and pasted the bit about all the problems he has just now, and problems he has had in the past.

See if any of it is familiar....

DS1 suffers from:

Severe reflux and aerophagia
Poor diet because most foods aggravate his gastric problems
Congestion in his ears which causes noise, hearing loss and burning pain
Headaches, aching limbs and a weak feeling in the mornings
Constant tiredness and lack of energy
Restless and disturbed sleep every night
Fairly regular nightmares
Bedwetting when he is ill
Difficulty controlling his behaviour when extremely tired or unwell
The effects of mouth breathing -large tonsils and sore throat
?Fizziness? in his hands and feet, which I assume to be pins and needles
Bouts of nausea
Poor co-ordination

In the past, DS1 has had:

IgE allergy to eggs (outgrown by age 4)
Intolerance to milk (both cows? and later goats? milk)
Several episodes of croup
Periods of illness which can last several weeks wherehe seems to catch one thing after another.
A disproportionate number of stomach bugs. Usually diarrhoea rather than vomiting
Borderline anaemia

He needs his tongue tie operated on. He needs swallowing therapy to correct the swallow after his operation. He needs his palate exapanded by orthodontics, and he needs it done now, not when his teeth come in all squint. And he may need his tonsils out.

Not easy to convince the medics!!

Original poster
marykat2004 · 28/11/2011 11:26

Interesting... I am curious how Carrots' DS was diagnosed with anxiety and depression already, at such a young age? We had a big blow up yesterday where DD pretty much ruined a dinner party we tried to have.

DD is a fussy eater but when it comes to cake she can pile it in her mouth, so I don't think she has anything physically wrong with her. Both DH and I have a high rate of mental illness - depression, bipolar, suicide - in our families. This is a huge worry. I really try to stay cheerful for DD but even I am not always the most upbeat person :(.

OP posts:
Carrotsandcelery · 28/11/2011 15:52

marykat I was really shocked I have to admit. The diagnosis was based on what the GP saw, the teachers documented, what we told the community paediatrician and what she saw for herself.

I didn't know that children so young could have such a thing but have since heard of an alarming number of people who have similar or the same problems.