Sleep training - Dr Ferber's way?

[Cosy]

Having real trouble with DS day & night sleeps, where he now needs "help" in getting over to sleep for daytime naps & also resettling back into sleep after many night-time wakings. He is 4 months old. The "help" I give him is usually in form of rocking to sleep in day, and breastfeeding during the night. This hasnt been a huge problem up till recently, but tiredness is really catching up on me, and more importantly need to get him into better sleep habits before returning to work.

I have just bought Dr Ferbers "Solve your childs sleep problems" book and was wondering has anyone tried following his advice, and how did you get on?

I have been really impressed at his explanations of why sleeping problems arise, and can see where I have created the sleep associations. It has convinced that I do need to do something to break the "habits", but am daunted at the prospect of the controlled crying. Really keen to know if anyone else has tried following his advice. Thanks.

Does the book say at what age you can try the solutions ? I have not read the book so I can't comment. Not sure what he suggests for a 4 months old.

Having said that most babies do NOT sleep through (9 hours stretch) before 12 weeks anyway and the VAST majority sleep through much later.

Don't know the Ferber book - but it was around 4 months that I started to teach my dd to put herself to sleep. Up till that point I'd either rocked her or breastfed her to sleep. I wanted to stop because a) the rocking was giving me terrible back problems and b) transferring her from boob to bed without her waking was getting increasingly difficult.

We started her on a 7pm bedtime, and sometimes she would put herself to sleep after a breastfeed and sometimes she wouldn't. So then I decided to get fierce! After getting her drowsy with a feed I would put her down and for two nights we had to let her cry for 10 minutes ... after that she went to sleep without a murmur every night after a feed. So it was incredibly easy for us - not sure I could have handled much more crying, it nearly broke my heart as it was.

Since then she has been a marvellous sleeper - sorting out the bedtime putting to sleep meant she was brilliant at going back to sleep after nighttime feeds. Daytime naps were more of a problem, but that's another story.

She does go through phases of crying at bedtime and wanting attention - so we just go into the room at increasing intervals and calm her down, say night-night and leave. And after a few days she generally sorts herself out and goes back to not protesting at all (she's 15 months)

So ... some people are really anti leaving them to cry, which I totally understand, but for us it literally involved two sessions of 10 minutes and was brilliant because it totally sorted out my dd's sleeping. I do believe that babies need to be taught how to put themselves to sleep - whatever method you choose. It was the biggest shock of parenthood for me, that getting them to sleep when they're obviously exhausted was such a challenge.

Pidge - the next test of parenthood awaits you... potty training
I agree with you about teaching them to settle on their own... I did this fron 3 or 4 weeks old with both of mine and it was dead easy but they were very small so it was quick and simple (I think!)

Thanks Pupuce & Pidge. Dr Ferber recommends leaving baby to cry for 5 mins, then 1 minute "visit" to soothe by touch & voice, then leave for 10 mins, then another 1 min visit, and so on. Max time left to cry on first day 15 mins, then increase to 20 mins next day, etc.

Also for daytime naps he recommends regular schedule for naps. At the minute I just put DS down when I think he's tired. He sleeps probably only 1 1/2 hrs max, whereas 3 hours is recommended. How long do your babies nap for?

Pupuce he recommends sleep training from 5 months, but now that I know I'm creating bad habits I want to change things now, rather than reinforce them for another month. I'm not aiming to get DS to sleep through the night - just reduce night wakings from about 6 a night to say twice a night would be lovely

I really hope I am as lucky as you Pidge in getting success so quickly. I know it is going to be so, so hard to listen to him crying. I am just afraid that I'll give in at some stage, and then I'll have tought him even worse habits! I'm also tempted to try to get his daytime naps sorted first, as I think I will have more willpower during the day. What do you think, or do I need (as the good Dr Ferber says) to be consistent for all his sleeps, night and day?

Would not recommend Ferber, especially for a baby that had spent 4 months being loved to sleep. Try the No Cry Sleep Solution instead. It's currently working for us. Only up twice last night (down from 8! last week)

Bobthebaby - what does the No Cry book suggest. Am certainly interested to hear of any easier ways out. Getting sorted out in a week also sounds great!

I think 4 months is too young for control crying.
Why don't you focus on DAYTIME sleep... it will help improve night time sleep.
What time does he get up and what time does he go to bed ?
Baby that age NEEDS 3hours at least !
Put him down after 2 hours up... he will be tired (2h 30 mins max). If you do this gently but with confidence and I insist on the confident bit (i.e. babe I know you can dop this and it is for you that I am doing this) .... it will be easier.
He shoud have a morning nap and a lunchtime nape of at least 1h30/2h for that one)

The other solution is using a Gina Ford tupe routine. It will help knowing when to put him down. You don't have to worry about when you need to eat (as her book says) but loads of mums who tried it at 4months found it seriously improved everything (and there is no control crying involved). Get the book at the library if you are fed up of buying baby books... or ask friends.... it's a best seller so someone is bound to have it!

Pupuce - I know his daytime naps are too short, but he is such a nosy rascal that he really fights sleep. He is put to bed between 7 - 7.30pm, after a bath, massage and feed. He wakes up round 11pm, and then several times in between, until "get up" time of about 7.30am.

Current naps are somewhere around 11am for 3/4 hr, and 2pm for another 3/4 hr. If he is in pram or car will also sleep for as long as we're moving! I will try and get hold of the Gina Ford book, and get him into a routine, and I know you're right about trying to get him to sleep alot more during the day. Just hope DS twigs on quickly!

11 is way too late - he fights sleep because he is passed tired !
Morning nap should be LATEST 10AM ! for 45 mins is good
Lunchtime at around 12:30 - for 2 hours
Babies wake up after 45 mins but when yhou get use to it you will see that most days he will fall right back to sleep after a few noises.

I "ferberized" my ds at 6 months exactly. Up until then he had been exclusively breast fed and was sleeping in our bed and waking up EVERY two hours to feed. It only took 2 days, though we did have to redo the sleep training after travelling to major time zone changes and after bad colds (with coughs and ear infections that woke him up). Controlled crying is really not all that bad. I think the key is following the instructions of trying to put the baby to bed awake so they learn to put themselves to sleep when they wake up at night.

The NCSS book bascially gets you to keep a diary of sleeps, wakes, what you did, how long it took to get to sleep etc. Then you sit down and work out what you want to change and which order you are going to do it in. It also stresses daytime naps are important. It then gives tips to get and keep a baby asleep.
The bits I found most useful is to stand outside the door when the first wake up happens (with our ds it was always at 8.30) as soon as you hear a peep, you pop in and say shush or whatever you do to signify it is sleep time (in our case I have to grab his hands to stop him scratching his eczema, because once he gets stuck into his skin he wakes up) he falls back asleep within seconds. After a few nights, he probably still briefly wakes but goes right back to sleep without making a noise. It was the opposite to what we had been doing which was to wait outside and see what happened, which always ended in a scratch fest and me having to feed him.
At 2.30 he was waking and screaming (but not in a pained way iyswim), we were rushing in (and probably waking him up, then he was grumpy because he wasn't really awake until we woke him) and so we tried waiting to see what would happen. After 40 minutes he went back to sleep on his own, no crying just chattering to himself.
Anyway I think we got the results fast because I had been already keeping a sleep diary, and we still have a lot to do to get a full nights sleep.
I did read Gina, but it doesn't suit me to work to someone else's rules. I liked setting my own goals, because then I feel acheivement as we "cure" each waking, rather than disappointment that we are still not acheiving what Gina says by a certain month.
Phew what a massive message, I guess it would have been quicker for you to buy and read the book.

You should not try controlled crying on your baby before baby is at least 6 months. I think it is wrong to view 4 month old babies as having sleep "problems". Their sleep pattern isn't like ours, but it doesn't mean it is a "problem". Yes, it does make us tired having to wake at night, but that's what it is like having a baby! We used a very light veriosn of Ferber on dd when she was around 8 months to get her to sleep at night, but IMO you have to be quite careful. One of my friends used controlled crying on her little boy who kept waking all night. She later found out he had had months of ear infection and it was really painful for him to lie down. He had been fine during the day, so she hadn't suspected anything.....

agree 100% with Pupuce re timing of naps. My ds feel into the Gina pattern of naps so quickly - the best advice ever for us was to put him down to sleep 2 hours after waking.

Hi Cosy, we've taken bits from both NCSS and Ferbers, by going in every 1min, 5min, 5min etc and then saying reassuring words (the same every night every time we enter) and ds (4months) drops off within a minute of soothing. Haven't left him to cry it out yet and personally I'd rather be woken 4/5 times in the night to 'soothe' him than to leave him crying. We're gradually shortening the time we're in there he's learning slowly how to do it himself.

DS also LOVES to sleep on his tummy, so daytime naps and his first sleep after feed at 7pm are on his tummy. When he wakes for a feed in the night I then put him back in bed on his back (usually around 10pm) as I worry about hearing him when I too fall asleep (the few hours I get a night )

Am i really messing my baby up? DS is 7 months and we keep stopping and starting controlled crying. For the past month he's been waking at night and really early on his lunchtime naps. We started to do controlled crying and it worked for a couple of nights when he went back to sleep after 20 mins or so. Then the next few nights he just kept crying for ages - up to 2 hours - so each time we ended up picking him up and settling him because we really thought there might be something wrong. There never was - he was always fine once we picked him up, no dirty nappy etc, just wanted a cuddle. Then he developed a cold so we stopped doing cc for a bit and when he woke we brought him into our room and he settled easily.

Now, his cold has gone but he's still waking and we've tried cc a few more times but he just won't settle by himself. After an hour or so we give up cos we're worried there might something really wrong, despite swearing blind at the start that we'll 'see it through' this time. I suspect he might be teething although I've been saying that for weeks, and he's perfectly content during the day, and putting bonjela on his guns doesn't help. I guess I've basically taught him that he can cry and cry and eventually he'll be picked up so I feel I've really messed it all up and it's not fair on him at all cos ultimately I've let him cry for no reason.

I've ended in tears myself myself today cos I let him cry for ages when he woke early into his nap, and then ended up picking him up. When I went in for the last time he'd bent himself into a funny corner and so I had to pick him up. It was also getting near afternoon bottle time so I thought maybe he was hungry.

Really, what the hell am I doing to my baby...? Confusing for him or what! I really feel like I've messed the whole thing up cos of my inconsistency and am letting him cry for no reason. But how can I do it when he just cries and cries and I panic there's really something wrong and I'm being a terrible mother by ignoring him?

Please ignore the last message below. I meant to post an entirely new topic, which I've now done. Sorry!

I agree with the importance of nap times. However, when they are feeding every 3 hours eg they wake at 7am, feed, play then back to bed for nap at 9am. Sounds great in theory but what happens if they wake after half and hour. By the time you try several times to get them back to sleep (for me without success) it's near feeding time again so not only are they overtired but also hungry so you end up picking them up. GREAT!! they think, all I have to do is not go back to sleep, drive my mum crazy and I get a boob as a reward. If one nap, especially the 10am, fails the rest of the day slowly falls apart. Have read all the books on the market but none actually tell you what to do in that situation. Pidge, if you're still there - what is your story re problem naps, might help Cosy to. Celandine, really feel for you and know what you're going through. Your story sounds exactly like mine (for the naps anyway). Cosy, best of luck hon. Will be following thread if I've not scared everyone away already

Cosy: I'd be very curious to know where Ferber recommends sleep training from 5 months. I read his book carefully and found it totally vague about when to start. But (I understand) he has been emphatic in public interview since not to do it before 6 months. This is in line with the general view that some babies will still genuinely need to feed at night to ensure adequate growth, all the way up to 6 months.

Celandine - do totally sympathise - it is a hard path to tread, part of you NEEDING sleep and knowing you will be a better mother once you've had some and the other part of you thinking that this is just too awful a thing to do to your bestest, darlingest baby... Been there with both my children.
Re Ferber - very interesting book and makes a lot of sense re babies not learning to go to sleep themselves. Was a shock to me too, that they didn't come already programmed to do this. The one thing he doesn't address - and I wish he would - is what to do if your baby is in your bedroom and you want to start controlled crying? We have only two bedrooms, dd's and ours, and as dd is a light sleeper, we thought we would do the cc while baby ds was still in with us. Disaster. I think he just thought - there she is, why won't she pick me up, feed me, hold me? Poor little man. So we moved him to his sister's room and tried again. She amazingly didn't wake up and he amazingly sorted himself out after just two nights. Early days still, but I think he's sussed out what is required. Seems a lot happier too, well rested and ready for the day. Unfortunately, this is at 6am, but hey, clocks go forward in 3 weeks, think after 6 months of fractured sleep I can hang on just a little bit longer... Hooray for Ferber!