Please help! Grandparents do not understand our 'obsession' with DD's sleep

[Dreemagurl]

Our DD (7.5 months) has never been a great sleeper. One of those hyper alert, easily stimulated babies :) She's very active - crawling already - and as a result tires quite easily and can only do 2 hours awake time max (often less). My mum and MIL do not understand why we appear to be constantly putting her to sleep! We use White noise and a snooze shade in the buggy to help her sleep as she does not sleep without them and are having massive arguments with said grandparents about the necessity of these 'props'. MIL has even gone so far as to say we are damaging DD's hearing with the White noise! I am desperately looking for some solid fact based information I can throw in their faces about babies' nap requirements and how things like the snooze shade and white noise will help. Please help! It sounds silly but it's starting to seriously damage the relationship with our parents as they just don't understand! TIA

Dreemagurl, in answer to your OP - asking for facts and figs to use in arguments discussions with the GPs, I've had a look at Weissbluth again and found some stuff you might find useful. I would never support his sleep training advice - basically shut the door and let 'em get on with it - but the stuff on the science of babies' sleep is useful, and he does seem to understand the hyper-alert/wakeful baby type ("extreme fussiness" as he calls it).

p121 - some babies just take short naps no matter what their parents do. Between 6 and 9 months some are taking frequent short naps ('snaps') and often appear tired. These babies often had colic when they were younger. As long as they have an early bedtime, by 9 or 12 months most of these babies are taking fewer, longer naps. The morning nap develops at around 3-4 months or a month or two later in the fussy/colicky baby type.

It is important not to leave too long a time between waking for the day and the first morning nap - a baby four months or older who wakes at 7am should be going back to sleep between 9 and 10am. Weissbluth recommends aiming to keep them up until at least 9, but not if it means the baby will get overtired. If that means they are going back down at 8:45, so be it.

• p124 some babies up to the age of 9 months need a third nap, between 3 and 5pm, especially if their other naps are short. This nap usually disappears on its own by 9 months but if not you should try to eliminate it after that time.

As for scientific credentials: he has been a paed for 30 years and founded the Sleep Disorders Center at Chicago Children's Memorial Hospital in 1985 as well as being a Professor of Clinical Paediatrics at Northwestern University School of Medicine. And he is Cindy Crawford's paediatrician so he must be good

HTH.

Ooh, just seen on Wikipedia that his findings on naps were the result of a seven-year-long study, and he was the first to discover that changing a child's bedtime can dramatically reduce night wakings

I'll shut up now

I have read Weissbluth too and it's great except the sleep training bit I lent it to SIL so you've reminded me Count, must get it back!!!

Just to add my voice OP, i understand your 'obsession' with naps. I too have been there as DS has always been one who gets really, really overtired by bedtime, but much more so if he hasn't had a decent amount of sleep for him during the day. He's also always been an inconsistent napper - sometimes sleeping beautifully for ages and sometimes waking after 30-45 minutes. He has only recently (at 7.5 months) started napping more reliably (short morning nap, longer afternoon nap, dropping his 3rd nap). When he has a tired day, for whatever reason, it seems i am always putting him down for another nap! You know your baby. Be led by him and sod whatever anyone else thinks or says!

Thanks again Count, will definitely use that info to throw in GPs' faces assist in getting our thoughts heard. And thanks to all of you for your support and letting me know I'm not alone. I was seriously starting to doubt myself and thought I was going mad, but you've all really helped me to trust in my instincts again. Having spent nearly every waking minute with my baby for the last 7.5 months I definitely know her the best! Thanks again (I heart MN :o)

Exactly, you know her best and am glad to hear you now know your instincts are right.

www.thesleepstore.co.nz/Product+information/Sleepy+Planet++The+Sleep+Easy+Solution/Sample+routines++schedules.html

This website has some references. My DD has always slept a lot and was probably on a similar routine at that age. She's also a very content child. My parents didn't get it either. They would mistake her second wind or being overtired for excitement. I suspect I spent my whole childhood overtired!

Oh God, my DD would never go to sleep if she was tired either. The quality of my days were defined by how she napped when she was a baby. I used to have to rock her to sleep for every single nap, often it could take 90 minutes to get her to sleep for 30. If I left her to it she would never sleep but needed to so would get desperately unhappy :( No-one ever believed me about it, you cannot understand it if you haven't had it. She dropped all her naps at about 18-20 months and I've never looked back. At night she's a dream. We do bedtime, she stays awake looking at her books for a while (up to a couple of hours but normally less) then falls asleep until 7.30ish. Never bothers us in the evening since she is quite happy with her books. No advice I'm afraid, I never cracked it but huge sympathies, it is a nightmare.

My DD (7 months next week) still has three shorter naps every two hours. To be honest, I thought this was normal! I'm luckier in that she goes to sleep easily (on her tummy) but there is no chance of resettling her once she's awake. I have just learned to live with it.

I also completely understand the GPs thing. When my mum has DD she never puts her down and when she cries she feeds her instead- I must have spent my childhood overtired and obese!!

I don't think sleep props for naps matter - they don't last. My ds always fell asleep on the move and now at 2 no longer naps so no probs!

Bed time and night is a different matter... But I always found he was tired enough by bedtime for it to be less of a battle. Getting a child to nap (and mine is v active and alert and was from the beginning) can be far harder than bedtime in my experience. But they Are all unique!

Weissbluf - or whatever he is called - also says you can soothe your baby to sleep or shut the door on them - whichever method you prefer. He says it doesn't matter so long as you are always consistent!

And he says habits for naps and habits for night are different because different parts of the brain are responsible for day / night sleep....

I found him helpful too!

Hey, my DS has just turned 8 months, he too is an active baby, crawling at 6 months and currently walking holding onto sofa. He sleeps every 2 hours for 45 minutes if he can. I'm trying to change his naps so he has just 2 on a morning and a larger one on an afternoon. I don't help him to go to sleep though, he just conks out!!

Hello, I haven't got much more to add, other than to say I empathise.

My DD is 4.5 months, so a bit younger than yours, but I seem to spend my entire time getting her to nap, otherwise we're in meltdown.

I don't think my parents get it either - they deal with her overtired, frantic crying by jiggling her around even more and waving toys in her face. They look at me with bemusement when I'm rocking my baby in one arm with the hairdryer going for the white noise. Mum thinks I should feed her, then put her down in her cot and "she'll probably drift off". Ha! If only!

DD only naps for 40 mins at a time. I'm sure the key is to get her to nap for longer. I've just borrowed the no-cry nap solution book from the library. I tried one of the techniques for "nap blending" today - she woke crying from a nap in her pram after 40 mins. I immediately pushed the pram to and fro. It took about 5 - 10 mins, but she drifted off again and slept for another 40 mins. I think it helped as the washing machine was also going!

It is hard when you have input from family/friends who don't understand why your baby won't just fall asleep in the buggy if you're out and about, and why you're stressing because you know they'll be a nightmare when they haven't slept properly. I have 2 DDs and have had the same routine nap-wise with both of them. Both mine were just not interested in sleeping when there was something else going on as they didn't want to miss out (once they were past the new-born stage). My youngest is now 14 months and is on the verge of dropping her morning sleep and just having one nap after lunch for 1 1/2 - 2 hours. At 7 months her routine was roughly:
7am: milk
8am: breakfast (solids)
9am: nap in cot (occasionally in the car if I was on way somewhere) for 30-40 minutes
10.30am: milk
11.30am: solids
12.30pm: nap in cot for up to 2 hours
3pm: milk
5pm: solids
6.30pm: bath and milk
7pm: bed

Some babies need a short nap at 4ish to see them through til bedtime, but mine didn't at this age.

I'm still fairly obsessive about DD having her sleep after lunch and arrange the day round it so she can sleep in her cot. If we are on a long car journey at that time she will sleep, but never if we're just out and she's in her buggy. I definitely notice that if she doesn't have a decent daytime nap, she doesn't sleep as soundly at night. Hope this helps - of course all babies are different, but your routine isn't that far off this with a bit of tweaking.

Hi Count, I remember you from the no sleep thread which I have now thankfully left! I too can't stand the "sleep when they're tired" comments, er, mine didn't! Glad that your DS is finally settling down.

Dreamgurl, does your DD self settle? We had a TERRIBLE sleeper and spent the whole time either trying to get her to sleep or worrying about her sleep. It's horrible and unless you've had a bad sleeper you can't understand how obsessive you get because YOU ARE SO DESPERATE TO FOR MORE THAN 2 HOURS UNBROKEN SLEEP IT'S ALL YOU CAN THINK ABOUT.......

We used the gradual withdrawal method for all naps and nighttime sleep and it improved DD's sleep immeasurably, she now self settles every time and sleeps through. If you want more info let me know, gotta dash as DD has just woken up from her afternoon nap!

Oh my lord I wish I knew you lot in real life as NO mums I know seems to have these sort of issues!

your dd sounds like mine, they're both obviously very bright (that's what I told myself in the depths of sleep deprivation anyway, but seriously, if they're awake a lot, maybe they're learning more!)

If I can give you a ray of hope, it does get better, dd is 2 now and hasn't napped regularly since she was about 18mths - it's a lot easier, you don't have to worry about the timings anymore, though you obviously don't get a rest during the day. She will reliably sleep 7 til 6.30am now. I can live with this.

I would second the opinion that people who haven't had that kind of baby, just don't get it. The desperation that comes with sleep deprivation is something else. But it does get better.

Just let the GPs get on with it when you get back to work, enjoy your time off!! I didn't think I could cope with work when I was so sleep deprived, but it's amazing what a bit of make up and a coffee can do! And most people I know would say work is restful compared to looking after a baby.

dodgylady Your assertion is completely untrue and insulting. It begs the question what on earth you are doing on a sleep forum?

dodgylady you're pretty funny! Why bother posting that?

Yes, implying that those with dc with sleep issues are "useless" insults many users of Mumsnet. I think it would be nice if you apologised, Dodgylady.

I am sorry to piss on your chips dodgylady but you sound like a twat. I have been extremely lucky in that both my DC have slept for around 13 hours a night since a few months old. However one always napped well to whereas for the other one it is only falling into place now (7.5 months). Does that mean I am a good mum in the night and to one of them in the day? or are you just talking to bollox to intimidate a woman on the internet who has asked for advice?

My dd was a disaster with naps, and night time sleep for that matter. I fought with her for months and my life was controlled by her intermittent and short sleeps and the fallout when she missed one and was a screaming, hysterical, overtired wreck. She tried dropping all her daytime naps at 9 months and after fighting her for hours a day until ds1 was born when she was 18 months I gave up and she's rarely had a daytime nap since.

Whilst I agree that a bad daytime sleeper is hell, and you can easily become obsessive about it, I do still think that allowing your entire lives to be rules by this issue is counter productive. DD is six, still finds it difficult to shut down and wakes at every noise during the night, but she's learned to adapt, and we've learned to leave her to it and let her settle herself, even if it takes til 10.30 like last night before she winds down and drops off... as long as she does it in her room with minimal noise we don't intervene.

The turning point for us was having a second and no longer being able to live our lives according to her whims.... I just wish I'd realised sooner as everyone was so much happier once we all stopped obsessing about sleep.

Thanks again all. Judging by your responses I think I'm quite glad I can't see what dodgylady wrote!

SummerRain I'm totally put off having another one because DD's sleep is so crap - I couldn't cope with another bad sleeper. Or a worse one! I know what you mean, I should try and relax about it more but as a lot of you have said it's soooo hard especially when I'm desperate to get a good nights sleep myself!

Thanks to you all :)

My boys were fine.... both of them drop off if they're tired and there's nothing you could do to keep them awake. ds2 is 2 and fell asleep cuddling me at a birthday party with 22 screaming kids last week

They'll both chance their arm at staying up late but unlike dd they don't get to that overtired hysterical point... they just fall asleep wherever they happen to be

ds2 is dropping his naps atm and is a bit all over the place but still a walk in the park compared to dd..... go for it, all kids are different and chances are, through a combination of personality and your adapted parenting style, the next one will be a fine sleeper