Please help! Grandparents do not understand our 'obsession' with DD's sleep

[Dreemagurl]

Our DD (7.5 months) has never been a great sleeper. One of those hyper alert, easily stimulated babies :) She's very active - crawling already - and as a result tires quite easily and can only do 2 hours awake time max (often less). My mum and MIL do not understand why we appear to be constantly putting her to sleep! We use White noise and a snooze shade in the buggy to help her sleep as she does not sleep without them and are having massive arguments with said grandparents about the necessity of these 'props'. MIL has even gone so far as to say we are damaging DD's hearing with the White noise! I am desperately looking for some solid fact based information I can throw in their faces about babies' nap requirements and how things like the snooze shade and white noise will help. Please help! It sounds silly but it's starting to seriously damage the relationship with our parents as they just don't understand! TIA

You might be better of tweaking the routine so earlier lunch at 11 so more of a brunch, then BF and sleep and she might go for longer than 30 mins. I remember this age where it was hard to nap DS, he also used to be tired early in the morning. You can move the mealtimes once she's more established on solids as it's all practises at this age.

And there you go, I'm giving advice! Can't help it - just like the GPs in a way

Can't you just put her to bed when she's tired? She might sleep for longer than 30 minutes then. To be honest you sound obsessed with it and if you're putting more effort into getting her to sleep than she's sleeping for then something is a bit wrong.

I think the grandparents are right. i know when you have a tiny baby that the need for a break can be all consuming, especially if you have a lively one, but she does not need to have a nap at 8.30 in the morning after getting up at 7. Add 10 minutes on to her time every 2 days, and stretch her out (eventually) until 10 am.

Hmm, well you know your child, but if it takes 30 minutes, whitenoise (which only really works in the first few months) and a blackout shade to get dc to sleep, it could be that they don't actually need a nap right then.

DS and DD were on a couple of naps a day at 7 months.

You do sound a bit PFB obsessed, sorry.

Oh God, so everything we've been doing is wrong? I don't get it :( And yes I am obsessed with her sleep cos if she's not getting any, I'm not getting any. I'm averaging 4 - 6 hours a night, not all in one block and I am soooo bloody tired. And now everyone thinks I'm doing everything wrong anyway? I seriously don't know what to do. I'm in tears writing this. I have to go back to work in 2 weeks and GPs are supposed to be looking after her.

I'm trying to put her to bed when she's tired - that's what I do! I don't understand where I've gone wrong.

Of course you are obsessed with sleep, you're bloody exhausted :(

I dont know what to suggest really but don't feel like you've done it all wrong! This exhausting stage doesn't last forever :)

First of all, you are not doing everything wrong. You are trying to make sure(quite rightly) that dd gets enough sleep during the day. I think the issue is not the amount of sleep but the frequency. The way to change this is to tryto make the naps longer. I have no miracle solution but one thing I do with ds3 (6 months) who is prone to be a cap napper, is if he wakes after 30 minutes of say his morning sleep, I don't assume he is ready to get up and I try to resettle him. This works 9 times out of ten and he can sometimes then sleep up to 2 hours. I treat his day sleeps like night sleeps. Please do not get upset and worry though. You are doing your best for dd and you are a good mum or these sorts of issues wouldn't worry you.

no you haven't done it all wrong, you've done your best, and what you thought was right. I'm guessing you have been following your baby's cues, and this is where they have led. You did what you thought was right! And the baby is fine and happy, it's not like you've been putting her in the garden for 16 hours a day! She is FINE. You however are worn out.

You need to take some action if only to retain your only sanity - sleep deprivation is an awful thing.

Just try pushing her morning nap towards 10ish and see how you go?

You're not doing it wrong.

This age can be a time of transition for babies and their sleep, especially with a developmental leap and growth spurt rolled into one. Keep up the naps - insist she gets them in the day and as her routine evolves around solids (which is will), naps will improve. I promise!

People who have easy babies don't news to obsess as they fall asleep at the drop of a hat. DS was not one of those babies despite me going with the flow so I had to give some structure. Nothing wrong with that - we all do it with meals, why not sleep? Sounds like you're doing your best. It will get easier.

Sounds like the GPs will be doing it all their way when they are babysitting So, given they know exactly where you are going wrong, they can solve it, no?

Your routine looks normal to compared to my DCs of that age: except the before and after lunch nap would be 1 single longer nap after an earlier lunch.

dreemagurl - dont worry, you're not doing it all wrong its just when people have a few children they realise the value of letting go a bit and letting the baby fall asleep on its own as you go about your day.

if your gps are going to look after her they have to find their own ways of doing things anyway - its unfair to give them an exact schedule that stops them doing things at specific times and expect that to be ok.

I would focus more on the nighttime wakings tbh - its controversial on here but I always started to tweak mine at 7 months and actually night weaned them at this time (they were eating quite a lot of solids though).

You haven't been doing it wrong,bless you, but I think you've stayed with the patterns she would have had as a newborn, which she isn't anymore.

Definitely try for fewer, but better quality naps,and bizarrely, she'll probably sleep better at night as a result. Don't worry too much about the gps thing. You'll be relaxing at work (and believe me, that's what it will seem like )and they will just do what they think anyway!

Dreemagurl, this sounds a little like my son at that age. I recommend the Elizabeth Pantley no-cry books - perhaps the nap solution at this stage. They clearly set out the number if hours sleep babies of different ages should have and the disadvantages of not getting enough sleep. The best bits for us which we used at around 8 months were about nap blending. Ignore the back rod brigade. At 13 months DS now has one 2 hour nap in cot or buggy. As for GPs, we have had some issues there too, but DS clearly needed the naps and the longer GPs spent with him the more they came to see this. Good luck! It does get easier!

Our DS was, and sorry to say still is, a poor sleeper... With a not completely dissimilar routine to your DD at his age. I've seen other babies at toddler/baby groups who just magically go to sleep - our DS and I suspect your DD, just don't do this. If there is something to be interested in he will be interested in it - he needs no visual stimulation and no aural stimulation; so we use and still do use a quiet darkened room with radio 4 on.

However at about 8 months we had to send DS to nursery and get him down to a couple of day time naps to match their routine.

As you found with your DD if we tried to get DS to stay awake longer i.e. after eye rubbing/yawning starts then we just ended up with a really difficult settle/complete meltdown. So what we did was start to shorten the naps we wanted to get rid of by waking him before he would usually wake rather than letting him sleep - this meant he then slept longer at the other naps.

This may or may not work for you though...

However, by 8 months he was having 1 morning nap of 20-30 mins (in the car on the way to nursery on nursery days) an hour's nap after lunch and then another nap around 4-5pm (in the car on the way back from nursery). As he has got bigger he dropped the morning nap and then the early evening nap himself.

However - you're question was about solid facts on white noise/sun shades; I've got nothing on sun shades I'm afraid but noise I have done some research on in the past (for on-deck noise on aircraft carriers so not strictly relevant...) I've done a quick search now and this supports what I found last time:

Children's hearing and noise

Basically providing the white noise is well under 85dB then there should be no problem. Given that 60dB is normal conversation and 70dB is a vacuum cleaner I imagine you're well under that - if you're playing white noise over 85dB then I have to agree with the GPs :)

Look, Dreemagurl, I have now had 2 babies like this and when I had the first of them I came on MN for advice. I got loads and loads of help and support and it was great, but I also learned very quickly that people who haven't had direct experience of a baby like this absolutely cannot grasp the situation.

DD is nearly 9 months and has so far had a 45 minute nap earlier on, and I have just put her down again because she really needs 2 hours but for some reason woke early today. I also had a failed attempt at putting her down inbetween times.

She did the 45 minute nap thing until around 7 months when she started going longer. She still won't sleep more than that unless she's in the cot. I am constantly and slowly working towards her being less and less drowsy when putting her down with the aim of her sleeping longer, but IMO these babies which wake after one sleep-cycle are only going to improve when they're developmentally ready. You can help by trying to slowly wean your DD off the props though - that will really help her to have a good chance of a longer nap.

Re the GPs - I've been through this too - I felt that the unspoken message was "let me have a go and I'm sure it'll be fine". Both my mum and MIL soon realised that we weren't joking or being precious about sleep - it simply isn't worth letting these babies get too tired.

IMO the most productive thing you can do is try to wean her off the props and aim to get her put in the cot for some naps, forming a strong pre-nap routine (including a BF-to-sleepy if you need to, to begin with at least), so that she learns to sleep for longer. It will happen anyway, eventually, but you can encourage it. The GPs will soon learn for themselves - much as it is hard and painful for you to accept that they don't understand the need for sleep to be central to her day - and you have to let them try their own stuff in order for them to do so.

Thanks for all the replies, that's really helpful. We are going to try and wean her off the noise at least for naps to start with and try to keep her up a bit longer. We've also decided to let the GPs have her for a day and possibly a night (with us on call of course) so they can see what we mean. Thanks again

When they have her do take advantage of it and sleep, don't feel tempted that you have to make the most of it by doing stuff.

A bit of sleep is what you need right now, it will make everything feel like less of an insurmountable problem

Do what oyu have to do to get through the day. Definitely hand her over to GP's so you can get a decent nights sleep on a regular basis if they're willing.

If they think they can improve the routine let them, saves you the stress.
They aren't so reliant on regular rest breaks as they don't have a small child waking them all night. They can also get an understanding of the problem. Have to say 1 night of ds2 with her and my mum said never again. The little sod was awake every 1/2 hr.

The only thing to watch for is that they dont make the night sleep worse. Now that you would need to have words for.

Oh, forgot, when I was up the wall with mine not sleeping and being overtired they went for a walk in pram. Not great for my sleep but if I could get them to stay asleep when I got back it was great. Or handed them over to grandad to walk for miles whilst i had a rest.

Dreemagurl - Ahoy from the boat! I totally understand your issue. Whilst our Parents are perhaps more subtle than yours they don't get my insistence that I actively try to get DD to sleep in the day. And yes, we use props like white noise and if it is a buggy nap we use a snooze shade. Whoever said 'id baby is tired they will just sleep' is wrong. Alert, wakeful babies like this do not just sleep! DD has not 'just slept' since she was 8 weeks old, she has always needed assistance napping. Now at 10 months she has just leaned to self settle using a combination of pu/pd and NCSS and a truck load of patience! At 7.5 months she was nowhere near self-settling and why should she be?

Now as for the two hour intervals, you and I have another shared problem - cat nappers! I wrote a long post on the boat thread about how I am working to extend DD's naps and am having some success. Do have a read if you can or PM if you can't find it. So yes, if she is only napping for 30 mins she will need a sleep every 2 hours.

No cry sleep solution will back all of this up - I suggest getting a copy and giving it to your parents! Best of luck, see you on the boat.

Maybe if she didn't nap so much during the day she would sleep for longer at night.

At 7 months DS was only having 2 naps a day.

DS was a terrible sleeper and often wouldn't sleep if put in his cot but would fall asleep if we went out in the car or he was in his pushchair. I wouldn't just drive round or push him through to get him to sleep.

I hate to 'side with the enemy' here, but maybe you could talk to the grandparents and see if they have any tips? They might actually be able to help you get her in to a better routine. After all, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

I personally think her napping needs to be sorted out, as you don't want her doing that when she's older! And get rid of the white noise unless she really needs something to settle her, because otherwise it will genuinely become a prop. Obviously it will take time to change it, but I would really consider changing it.

If all else fails and you're happy doing what you're doing, just tell the grandparents to mind their own and let you get on with it.

Sleeping every 2 hours is a newborn sleep pattern. I think you are making things hard for yourself. It is hard work trying to get a poor sleeper to nap. DS always napped really well, thought I had it cracked then DD came along! We tried White noise etc with DD as the things that worked with DS just made her scream.

Try giving just a morning and afternoon nap and they may start to sleep a bit longer. I think it was about this age that DS started doing 2 hour stretches. DD never did she has never needed as much sleep as DS.

ds1 was just like that and i don't see anything wrong with your routine. 7months was a terrible time for us when we went through a really tough time trying to get him to self settle - he was taking 1/2hr to fall asleep for a 1/2hr nap 3 times a day and waking several times a night, needing me to sit with him for up to an hour each time till he was fast asleep again. in the end out of exhaustion and desperation i did a version of cc. 1 month of hell, great sleeper ever since. but still nothing got him to sleep longer than 1/2hr during the day till he started walking and now (aged 3!) he still has a 2hr nap after lunch!!

so i would say you're the one that has to live with your dd all day every day so unless it's a problem for you then tell everyone else you appreciate their 'advise' but you are doing the best you can to get through the day. if/when you feel it's a problem and you want it to change then there are plenty of different ways you can try to change your dd's nap and sleeps.

I very rarely post on here but am moved to by your post yesterday morning. You sound so fed up and I really understand!

My DS1 was like this - some sleepy babies will not 'just sleep' especially for naps. It's exhausting and you have to do what works for your baby even if that does mean some props. I just want to reassure you that DS1 (now 3) who was rocked for every nap for months did improve in his own time and has been a brilliant sleeper since he was about 1. Also I now have DS2 (11mths) - I haven't changed anything about my philosophy or approach but he is a great napper in comparison. He's just a different little boy and seems to find it easier to relax and wind down.

Having said that I think it is good idea to let the GPs have a go and if they find something else that works then great - as long as nights don't get worse of course! My guess is that they will begin to understand your 'obsession' once they have to cope for long spells with an overtired baby who needs help to sleep. The main thing is to take it easy on yourself - you haven't done anything wrong.