I've made so many rods for my back you could use me as a raft...

[LellieT]

This must be the longest post in the universe, but I'm close to tears and head's all muddled.

My DD is 5.5 months old. She has been rocked, held or fed to sleep since day one.

She has been almost exclusively breastfed (last bottle of formula was Christmas) and she will not take a bottle now even with expressed milk; I've tried various bottles and sizes of teats. She won't take a dummy - she thinks it's a toy.

We started weaning at 4.5 months, which is going well. She can sort of use a Tomee Tippee cup for drinks of water.

During the day, she is more or less a happy, contented little baby. She naps fine and will sleep for 45 mins wherever she's put down - usually in the pram so I can keep eye on her while I get stuff done.

Nighttime is totally different story. Bedtime starts with bath at 7pm. She then feeds to sleep, then DP holds her til she wakes up about 9pm/10pm. I then feed to sleep again til 11pm and she is then put in her cot for the night. She will sleep til about 1am then she's up every 90mins/2 hours - when she starts to cry I put her to the breast but I'm not sure if she's even hungry - I've probably created a habit. I do this because 1. DP works long hours and I don't want him disturbed and 2. I live in a Victorian terrace and I don't want neighbours disturbed either (I know I should be thinking 'stuff the neighbours' but I can't). Shush/pat infuriates her as does PU/PD.

Another problem is DD has got dry, itchy skin on her feet and legs which I also think is disturbing her sleep. Creams from the GP have been ineffective so we use olive oil to moisturise at every nappy change. I'm also waiting on a delivery of Burt's Bees buttermilk lotion, on the recommendation of a friend.

Also (and if you're still reading, thank you) I have so much conflicting advice from friends and family I don't know what the hell to do. MIL says DD's waking because she's hungry and I need to feed her a bottle of formula with a pureed rusk in it or baby porridge last thing and I need to get her on a bottle which will be fun and games. My mum says no, that the food will sit in her tummy and keep her up.

And because DD is used to being held in some way to get to sleep, she is incapable of self-settling.
She has been screaming this morning because I left her in her cot and the heavy sobs have prompted me to post this.
In amongst all the 'she shouldn't be held/fed to sleep' thoughts I have, the other part of my brain thinks 'why the hell not? She's been on this earth for less than 6 months so what's so wrong with a baby being comforted to sleep?' Then it comes to bedtime and I can't sleep because she can't sleep because she's not being fed or held. Bloody hell.

God, I'm even boring myself now with all this. I don't really know what I'm asking - I've got three main issues and I don't know how to sort them out. It'd be great if someone came along and looked at things from the outside.

Even if I don't get any replies/advice/suggestions it's lovely and cathartic to get it all out, but thanks in advance anyway.

Hi there - I couldn't read and not post, you poor thing! You have my full sympathy.

Two thoughts spring to mind initially - if you're not ready to stop the comforting to sleep yet, have you thought about co-sleeping for a while, then tackling the independent sleeping issue when you're happy that she's ready for it?

The second idea would be to tackle bed time, and get her to settle in her cot herself at that time? It may involve some crying but at that time in the evening at least you're not keeping the neighbours awake. Around the same age DS was going to bed in his cot but waking every 45 mins through the evening and every 1.5 hours through the night, eventually one bedtime DH just stayed in the room with him by his cot and he cried (DS, not DH!) for about 20 mins then dropped off to sleep, he then slept for the rest of the evening and 'just' woke twice in the night at which points I fed him, put him back in the cot and he happily went back to sleep (I was still bf-ing at that point). This was a huge improvement for us and I was happy that two wake ups at that age could well be from hunger.

I'm no expert of course, DS still doesn't sleep through at 11 months! Good luck and I hope you see some improvement soon.

PS - I believe rusk \ porridge from a bottle is considered a chocking hazard. Weaning made absolutely no difference to DS's sleep, and I don't know anyone that it has helped in terms of sleeping better. IMHO your little ones problem sounds more like sleep association than a feeding issue.

This is my life more or less since my now 13mo ds was 5.5mo... I bfed him in much the same way and tried feeding him up to make him sleep longer but it didn't work (and still doesn't now - he still wakes up frequently thru the night unfortunately). He was fed to sleep for a long time and I didn't care just as long as he got off to sleep - he's since learnt to self settle but that took time and a stint at my mum's where I could have help with the tiredness and allow him to cry a bit without thinking about my neighbours.

I have tried absolutely everything, paid a sleep consultant the lot and it hasn't really got me anywhere tbh.

My best advice would be to bring baby into bed with you at night (I live in an appartment block and am too concerned about neighbours being disturbed by a crying baby in the middle of the night) and let her nurse to sleep. If your dd is anything like my ds it's gonna be hard but there are ways to deal with a rubbish sleeper. Co-sleeping isn't forever but it does help you get the rest you need especially when bfing.

My ds is now in his own cot and self settles at night. He's not in his own room yet coz he still wakes up in the night and I don't have to wake up properly to deal with him as I would if he were in his own room.

I'd suggest an oatmeal and honey soap for her skin too.

Good luck xXx

I had similar things with my DD at about the same time. She was being fed to sleep and wouldn't self settle.

I tried sleep training from books and it all finally fell into place when she was about 10 months old, and she went from 2 feeds in the night to sleeping through almost overnight.

Firstly, I tried to remove the feed-sleep link by feeding her downstairs before the bedtime routine. Then took her upstairs for bath etc. I still needed to comfort her to sleep, but it was one link gone.

I tried the gradual retreat method to try to help her self settle without crying. I started by putting her down when nearly asleep and comforting her while she got to sleep, and got to the point (ever so slowly) of her just needing to hold my hand while she drifted off.

At that point, she'd cry whenever I let go her hand, so I wasn't sure how to "retreat" any more without her crying. In the end, I decided if she was going to cry anyway, I might as well be out of the room altogether, so I went to a sort of controlled crying method. She was nearly 10 months then, and I'm sure she was ready for it, because she settled herself surprisingly easily - she cried for a while then settled, and over a few days the crying reduced until she went to sleep without crying at all.

This might not work for you, but I do recommend trying to remove the feed-sleep link, and look at gradual retreat as a non-crying method. It's slow, but can work, though of course all babies are different!

I hope this helps, and good luck!

I don't know if this will help you at all, or not, and I still feel guilty about it, but my DD wouldn't settle til 2-3am - she stayed comfort feeding/breast feeding from 6pm til then, and I was exhausted (not a night owl at the best of times!)
at 9 weeks old I ran out of breastmilk one evening, absolutely nothing there, tried expressing, everything. We gave her an emergency carton of formula in a bottle (put it all in, had no idea how much she'd drink) - she drank the lot and settled to sleep quickly.
Since then she's slept through the night (some crying initially but soon settles). My problem now is that she's 20 months old, and won't go to bed without the bottle....

You could try it as a one off though, see how it goes? Even just one good night of sleep for you can make the world a better place!

I know you have lots of responses (which I have not read) but wanted to say...

I am another one with a good few rods, but sometimes I say to myself without those rods I would not be able to stand up!

My DD 'still' feeds to sleep (9MO), last night she woke 3 times, and does not nap in cot during day - she is currently asleep in baby carrier on me.

The only saving grace I have is that she usually goes down in her cot well at 7pm. However this was slowly developed with me being rigorous (or APITA) about the afternoon routine. So tea at 5, play, book, bath, BF and bed. NO deviation. She then usually sleeps till 10.30-12ish. This has kept me sane.

BUT the biggest problem I have is the constant self doubt that I am doing something wrong, that I am a bad mum because she does not sleep through. Stupidly last night after she woke up at 2am I could not get back to sleep because I could not stop thinking about what I am DOING WRONG!

In the light of day I realise I am not doing anything wrong I am just trying to do the best I can for my baby and me. And that is what you need to remind yourself.

Good luck....

i know how it feels to be out of your mind with sleep exhaustion you have all of my sympathy.
i did something very similar to zonkedout with my 11 month old, but i wasn't clever enough to work it out for myself so we used a sleep consultant (millpond) who had him sleeping through the night in about 4 weeks. he does still wake now for teething/pain etc but generally sleeps through.

I would say deal with one issue at a time, it's less overwhelming that way, i would start with the feed to sleep (we used the no cry sleep solution for this and it worked! it took ages though)

Also our ds went through a terrible sleep regression about a month ago and we put a mattress on the floor next to his cot and slept in his bedroom for about a week, we all got more sleep!

Also if you are worried about your neighbours it's worth asking your if they can hear your baby, we live in the basement of a victorian terrace and my ds can really scream and we asked our neighbours if it bothered them and they can't hear a a thing!

good luck xxx

My DD breastfed every two hours, round the clock for the first year of her life...we co-slept and I was pregnant again when she was 7 months. She only slept through with any regularity after DS was born.

She also ate like a horse from 6 months, walked at 10 months, and was a chatterbox at 17 months when her little brother was born.

She is now 13, taller than me and gorgeous...its a long road ahead, all those rods just fall off eventually

I am you but 2 weeks ahead and DD is in bed singing to herself. Sorry if this is curt, I've had one of those days (the least of which was getting crapped on by a bird...) Anyhoo- buy yourself the No cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantley. Its tailor made for people like you and me who fed to sleep and didn't know how to stop it.

As a quick summary: Set a nighttime routine that is predictable and unchanging. Mine is take up to bedroom at 1800 on the nail, close curtains, unchange, bath, out of bath, dry, moisturise, nappy, sleepsuit and sleeping bag. Stay in room with lights out and lullaby CD and bf (and I also sing along). This is where you perfect the PPO, The Pantley Pull Off. When she's no longer drinking but is comfort sucking, gently put your finger in her mouth to break the seal while holding under her chin with your other hand or the thumb of the hand breaking the seal. This will stop her opening her mouth to find you in her sleep. If she cries put her back on and repeat 30 secs later. Keep doing this until she's not bothered (only took 2 goes for my DD). Then put her into bed keeping your hands on her. All the way through the music's still playing and you also say sleep cues like sleep sleep now etc. The idea is that over time each thing you do in the build up to bed is orderly and predictable for her so eventually the breast becomes food and not something vital to sleep.

Get the book, it'll explain it much better that I will. But put it this way I spent £8 to realise very quickly that bringing my DD back downstairs after her bath for her feed and expecting her to fall asleep easily was not good. Once upstairs in calm, dim atmosphere, stay there! Also, sleep breeds sleep and longer naps may also help. 2 sleep cycles so 90-120 mins for a nap is meant to be good with a 6 mth old getting 3-4 hours naps a day. We sometimes manage this, but generally manage one big nap lasting 2-3 hours if I am lucky. Follow similar routine for bed but without the bath!

hth

Ds2 was just the same had huge bf'ding & falling back to sleep association and woke every 1 to 2 hours to needed help to go back to sleep.

Hideous sleep deprivation. And SO muddled in our thinking when trying to fix it.

We did lots of wrong things. But the best thing was to prise the association apart. We put him on the bed (tears) and then held him. Became a choice, bed or arms so he chose arms as wanted to be close. And now will fall asleep without bf'ding.

We have a cot set up that we don't use (!) but if he mucks around I say cot, show him cot and he goes back to sleep. 15 months now.

So PUPD was rubbish. He learnt nothing except how to be confused. And how to get hysterical.

But given the choice between two things he understood which one to go for (and that it wasn't going to bf'ding).

I still fed him once in the night until one year just incase it was hunger, but absolutely could not keep feeding him every hour or two. Plus he didn't need it.

Long reply, but oh I have suffered too, it's tough!

Also, imagine falling asleep in your nice cosy bed and then waking up on the kitchen floor not knowing how you got there. Would you turn over and go back to sleep? Hell no, you'd wonder what on earth you were doing there and do what you could to get back to your cosy bed. Same goes for your DD. She's fallen asleep cuddled up to mummy sucking then suddenly wakes somewhere else. Its only natural to go WAHHHHH! and get back to that lovely comfy cuddle with Mummy. Thats what the book says and I believe it. .

You are me 18 months ago. Except, I was so tired that when ds woke up, I brought him in with me and slept while he nursed. Ds has always had a voracious appetite but his nighttime feeds were comfort and habit. He wasn't actually feeding, just using me instead of a dummy. We started weaning him at about 9 months. One day, he decided he didn't want to nurse anymore and just stopped. He is now 2 and I read him a story, kiss him good night and leave the room.

I chose to let him set the pace. But I understand why a lot of people don't do that. It can be hard and frustrating at times but, as you said in your op, they are only young for such a short while.

I can completely understand and commiserate with you. There will be an end to this stage before you know it, whether you work at your dd's pace or urge her more quickly. But don't worry about your neighbours. Do what feels right to you.

I'm in similar situation dd just over 6 months is fed to sleep and co sleeps. Wakes every 2 hrs or less. I'm also worried it is more out of habit than hunger. Tried porridge before bed and that resulted in hardly any sleep that night! I only started weaning couple of weeks ago so may give it another week or two to see if the sleep improves. Like op not sure if she is too young to learn to self settle. We're not sure whether to buy a cot as I have feed to sleep lying down on the bed and then sneak off quietly. Not sure how we will ever get her to sleep in a cot. So you're not alone. Let me know if you try the no cry sleep solution.

One of the nice things about the No Cry book is that story about finding yourself on a ledge in the kitchen or something. Which would make you panic a bit and fear the falling to sleep process. It is huge to a baby to feel like they don't know where they will wake.

And also the idea that it may take a while for a baby to learn something new and not feel like you've failed in any way while they are learning slowly.

It helped me relax a bit at least.

I've had 3 hrs sleep tonight OP & I'm in in the same boat with my 13w DD. The rule is consistency in whatever you do whether that's pupd, shh pat, PPO or something else. No cry sleep solution reckons on 2 weeks for change, baby whisperer 3 days. Based on MN responses some children hate shhpat/pupd and some hate no cry sleep solution.

Are you: swaddling, baby not too hot/cold, trying a dummy even if you hate them, white noise, sleep on side not back (roll on back once asleep), try a hammock...

We've had a fair bit of luck by gradually cutting back on night feeds - the first time DS wakes in the night DH tries to resettle him (and yes, he does go to the work the next day!) after that I either feed but pop in a dummy to replace my breast asap or if it's later in the night use the sling as it's the quickest way to get DS back to sleep. The length of our longest stretch has gradually increased from 2 hours to over 5 hours over a period of 2-3 weeks.

I think unless they can self-settle then you always get sleep problems of some sort and we're not there with the self-settling yet, but this has at least enabled me to get enough sleep to be able to think about how to address that problem.

writing quickly as dd starting to stir. totally sympathise with you. haven't read other replies, but seems like there are a few issues for you which put together makes things seem really overwhelming - maybe start off by dealing with one issue at a time (like getting to the bottom of the dry itchy skin), then once thats sorted, moving on to tackling the soothing to sleep issues. good luck!