lower age limit for CC..?

[Wiggins]

Is four and a half months too early to do CC??
My son has been extremely alert and a terrible sleeper since birth, and we have tried everything else to help him sleep. He's become good at staying asleep during the night (waking for a couple of feeds and going back to sleep), but getting him to go off to sleep in the evening for the first period is a nightmare. He has so much stamina, he can fight it (and us) for hours and hours. He also can sometimes wake at 4:30-5am wide awake and wanting to play. We don't play with him then ofc, but we also can't ignore him completely or he seriously escalates.

Re daytime naps, his first kip of the day is usually easy, then for the rest of the day it becomes harder and harder. He gets so tired and grumpy but will not even relax let alone sleep.
My DP thinks he is too young for CC. But we really are at wits end.
I would also like advice on how often to feed him as we had him on a successful 4-hourly routine but in the last week it's all gone to pot as he suddenly seems hungry all the time. I'd really like to get him into a consistent routine.

Yes too early.

We had a lot of success with 'no cry sleep solution'. Very gentle and worked like a dream for our twins.

I agree it's too early.I would say 6 months minimum.could you try another technique like shh/pat?
A good book is 'teach your child to sleep through the night',can't remember the author bet there are 2 of them.
Sounds like your LO is having a growth spurt,there is a big one at 4 months.

Personally I found the 'no cry sleep plan' wishy washy.it didn't really tell me anything at all but it is a popular book.

Have you tried just putting him in the cot and sitting next to him until he goes to sleep? We did this with our DS (super-alert, almost impossible to get to sleep) at around five and a half months after carting him around the house screaming every evening for months and months. He did cry a lot the first few times (about an hour and a quarter was the longest - but he would regularly cry for that long when we rocked him to sleep) but we never left him alone and always reassured him by cuddling him in the cot, patting him, stroking him, talking soothingly to him etc. It took a few days but now he goes in his cot awake after his bedtime routine (bath, pjs, bf, story), we turn out the light and put a hand on his tummy, and he goes off to sleep within 10 minutes without a whimper.

He still wakes every two hours but that's another story

The thing about CC is that they don't understand you're coming back when you leave them. You probably won't improve things without any crying if your DS is anything like mine, but at least he won't be frightened or feel deserted if you stay with him. You might want to hang on a bit, though. I don't think my DS would have been ready for it at four months. We also did it as a last resort after shush-pat had very little effect on him and pick up/put down pissed him off beyond belief.

I'd agree that it is too early. We only used controlled crying once he was beginning to settle himself at 7 months so it only took one night. I don't think it would have been successful any earlier.

6 months would say all the gurus of CC, including Richard Ferber himself.
Keep in mind, of course, that Ferber co-slept with his own babies and small boys.

Way too early for CC. I don't mean to offend you but your expectations seem a bit too high. It's very normal to still have drawn out bedtimes at this age. You say he's sleeping well at night which is a very good thing. Improving the daytime naps would probably help with bedtimes. Does he sleep well in the pram?

Babies of this age should still be fed on demand. Although 4 hours is a good basis, if he gets hungry before this time then feed him! He's still growing at such a fast rate and needs it.

Hope you work something out that suits you all, it can be tough when you're feeling at your wits end. But honestly every stage passes so quickly, routines change constantly, and hopefully before you know it bedtimes and naps will get that bit easier.

I think that the replies you will get are from people who are very anti-CC; those of us who have done it successfully are so used to getting flamed about it that we often can't be bothered to re-post. I did CC on my two week old baby - ten years ago - it took one night and he has been a fantastic sleeper ever since.

I am sure it will work for your family if you want it to.

I will not return to this thread as I know I will get flamed (again) .

I did CC with my 4 MO after my HV advised it (she said once over 12lbs it is safe), it was fine, 3 days in she went to sleep fantastically. We occasionally have the odd night now where it can be a little difficult to get her to go down but to be honest it has made such an improvement to her sleeping/waking I would do it again in a heartbeat. Like Ragwort I will not be returning to this thread but if you want any advise/assurance feel free to PM me.

I know a lot about CC as I researched it a great deal with my non sleeping DS1. I also consulted a sleep clinic who offered assistance with various sleep training options.

All the CC experts say after a year is best, but from 6 months it can be done but really only with expert advice to ensure it's being done correctly.

As you expected Ragwort, you are talking complete rubbish. Cruelty aside, a 2 week old baby doesn't have a sleep "problem". At that age every night is different. In all probability your baby was destined to be a good sleeper anyway. No-one - not even the most die-hard CC supporters - would say that it can work in one night.

The whole principle of CC is that the baby has to have the developmental maturity to understand the concept of transient separation - that carers leave but they then come back. If they can't understand that, then basically all you're doing is terrifying the crap out of your little baby, who thinks they have been abandoned over and over again, then passes out with exhaustion. Not a good idea.

Why on earth would weight make a difference?

I agree with others that 6 months is about right, and I'm not anti-CC. You could try pick-up-put-down from 4 months though.

Please can someone explain shh/pat and pick up put down - do you do just that? DS2 - 12 weeks is co-sleeping at the moment and feeding two or three times through the night. During the day he screams bloody murder if put down when asleep and will not fall asleep unless being held. We did the CC with DS1 at 6 months and it worked a treat but I dont want to try that yet with DS2. I would REALLY appreciate any words of wisdom.

In answer to the original thread I do feel that Controlled crying should not be attempted before 6 months as they just don't have a long enough memory to get what is happening IMO.

it's the 4month growth spurt - my older 2 boys sent me to hell and back when they hit 4months and it lasted weeeeeks!

i was in a similar situation to you with ds1's sleep and tried everything. i couldn't/wouldn't do cc untill i was sure he was definately not hungry so 4months is really not a good time to try it. i did the no-cry sleep solution, used a dummy and comforter, part time co-slept then when we hit 7months and i really was at my wits end (and a few weeks pregnant) we did self settling. bit like cc but no clock watching. i really don't think they could deal with that developmentally before 6months at least.

i can really sympathise with the naps as well. with the self settling 'training' we were told to stick to the same routine every time you put them to sleep. if you can crack it with a midday nap then bedtime will be much easier. i used to co-sleep for afternoon naps and sit with him for up to an hour at bedtime.

PUPD is literally pick them up when they cry, but as soon as they're calm again put them back in their cot - while they're in their cot you can try patting their bottom/back rhythmically while making a loud, long shushing noise. At first you end up spending a long time standing over the cot picking up and putting down til they finally fall asleep.

I would be investigating the hunger thing, I think. My DD has never fed four hourly- up until 16 weeks she was still feedling two hourly all day and now at 18 weeks feeds 2.5-3 hourly. Could he be crying with hunger in the evening and therefore be hard to settle? As for a consistent routine, I have felt like this the whole time I've had my DD and at times have tried to put her in a routine but have now decided it's more painful trying than going with what she wants. As soon as I decided she put herself in a little routine of her own!

Is he breastfed or bottlefed? Mine never managed 4 hourly feeds until he was having full solid meals in between.

Yes, mine feeds (bf) every 2.5-3 hours at six months.

Thanks very much to everyone who responded.

He is bottlefed (long story), and I can usually tell when he's hungry cos he does quite a distinctive cry. The 3 hourly feeding routine I got from the Baby Whisperer book and he went straight onto it very easily. Then about a month ago I read the aptamil box (/blush!) and it said at his age he should be getting only 5 feeds a day ish :O So we went to 4-hourly and again he adjusted surprisingly fast, doing 'the cry' reliably about 3 min before every feed time.

If he wants to be fed significantly earlier, we don't argue though ;) which is why by request this week he's gone back to 3-hourly, I guess it's the 4-month growth spurt you mention Naturalbaby. How long (if ever) was it till your boys got back into their routine?

Theresapotato - don't worry, I'm not offended, it's my first child and I freely admit I don't know what I'm doing!

I had a breakthrough with the daytime napping yesterday after I posted, by moving his cot to the darkest room in the house, the only room with blackout curtains. It hadn't occurred to me before as the first nap of the day he can do in light surroundings without difficulty. But it really helped, he went to sleep in record time, and repeated the feat today!

Don't worry too much about what the box says - it's just a guideline based on an average weight baby of that age. Bigger or smaller babies will want more or less milk, some babies like little and often and some prefer bigger feeds.