14 weeks - never slept in moses basket, cot, pram or car seat, no ability to self-settle, only accepts mum - will it ever get better?!

[plasticspoon]

My 14 week old ds's sleep is such a mess and I just have no idea how to sort it out! He -

-will nap in a sling after about 10 mins screaming if you walk very briskly outside. No stopping!

-will nap in my arms very well, sometimes for 2 1/2 - 3 hours, but only after much fussing after the breast, where he will suck for a couple of seconds before popping off and wanting the other breast. Repeat about 20-50 times before falling asleep.

-after the same fussing routine, with rocking and a hairdryer going full blast next to his head, he will co-sleep. He wakes every 1-2 hours, the intervals get closer together through the night as wind bothers him more and more.

He will not nap in the pram (he just screams), and has never napped in his moses basket as even if I put him down deep asleep he will wake within a couple of minutes. I can't get him in the sidecar cot at night as he wants to be attached all the time. He chases me across the bed!

I've tried putting him down awake but it's like he has no clue how to fall asleep. Eventually he starts crying and only the boob will do. He will not sleep on my dh.

Sorry this is so confused, I'm just so knackered. I feel I spend all my time trying to get him to sleep with my dh and family completely unable to help. My body hurts from spending 12 hours a night (yup, I am still going to bed at the same time as my baby!) lying on my side in the same position. I feel isolated because I don't know any other babies around the same age who are this challenging - when I meet friends for coffee their babies seem to nap whenever they need to in mum or dad's arms and then enjoy hanging out when awake, whereas my ds fusses and cries, needs constant reassurance and finds it impossible to switch off.

Any ideas or reassurance that things will improve? I feel like I am failing :(

ouch.
you poor thing. i know what you mean about co-sleeping hurting your body too.

I'm in a similar position, and you might want to have a look at a thread where i got some great support here. not saying you should do any sleep training stuff, but there's lots of good suggestions in the thread.

IMVHO, and i'm clearly far from expert, overtiredness can be an issue. how long is he awake between sleeps (from when he first opens his eyes to when he's actually asleep, not when you start soothing)?

You're definitely not failing. It sounds like you have a normal to fussy baby rather than the photograph from the baby magazine that most people (including me) expect they're going to get.

BAsed on the observation that you never hear of 15 year olds that sleep/not like this I can safely say that YES it will get better.... the question will alwasy be when....

For me the thing to do was to just roll with it... if he wanted to sleep being held then I let him sleep being held - i learnt how to co-sleep (the book 'three in a bed' is fab for this, I got a proper sling - ring-sling and a Wilkinet that let me actaually do stuff when he was sleeping on me

And i also took comfort from the fact that my DC loved me SO much that he couldn't bear to be apart from me....

DS is now 2.5 yo. He now sleeps in his own bed and puts himself to sleep. He sleeps through from 8 to 7 two or three nights a week and wakes once at about 3am the rest of the time for some reassurance and (if he's lucky) a story and a song :)

I'm really glad that I didn't do any sleep training - they will get it eventually and I love the bond I have with my DS even now that I know came from taking it gently...

One other book you might like: Pantley 'No-cry sleep solution'

Poor you. Some babies are just like this, and some people have higher levels of tolerance of it than others. Lots of people on here, for example, swear by co-sleeping, but I found it a nightmare that left me exhausted and ridden with pains in my arms, back and nipples.

Both mine were like this to some extent. Sleep training (CC) at 6 months worked for one of them, not for the other. But he is probably too young for anything like that - some babies just don't seem to have an off switch and you can't make them develop one so young.

But both of them started getting a little better around 4 months. So hang on in there. Small improvements like starting sometimes to nap in the pram if pushed for miles, which eventually morphed into always falling asleep if pushed a little, and then to always falling asleep if put in pram stationary at right time. A little gentle routine structure helped - nothing obsessive, just aiming for some kind of pattern of eating and sleeping around the same times, and roughly same number of naps a day. But it is really hard, isn't it - especially when you know other more settled babies. There are lots of screamers around - it's just that their parents stay at home too harried, exhausted and desperate to leav the house. Good luck.

Thanks charlotte i will have a look at your thread. I start trying to settle him 90 minutes after he wakes up- is that too long do you think?

I am struggling with the fact that my dh and parents think i am doing the wrong thing by letting him sleep on and with me all the time. I think they are you worried i will spoil him and that by allowing him to do it i am teaching him to rely on it. I am torn between wanting to go with whatever works for him and wanting to preserve my own mental health. I would like to be able to put him down for some naps and also for him to be cake to sleep a few hours alone in the evening before coming into bed with us.

I've ordered an Amby hammock but am under no illusion it will be the miracle i would like!

Sorry a lot of gibberish in that post! Predictive texting while ds naps on lap!

Just to make sure, are you sure your milk supply is ok? Is your little one gaining good weight?

Poor you, sounds like a nightmare!

I think if I were you I'd start trying to structure your day a bit, getting up at the same time every day and having at least three naps at roughly the same time every day - at first just aim to get those naps in by whatever means possible, even if it's on your lap everytime. Once those naps are really a rock solid part of his routine you could start working on putting him down for them, or alternating how he falls asleep - sometimes in the pram, sometimes sling etc. Hopefully once day time sleep improves night time sleep might follow.

Does he have a dummy? Things that helped my ds were dummy, white noise (a radio static track that we looped and played on the laptop) quite loud and rocking. I know lots of people also find swaddling helps.

Sorry a lot of gibberish in that post! Predictive texting while ds naps on lap!

Another thought. Both mine used to be calm and content for a few minutes at least if left on the changing mat (on the floor obviously) without a nappy. Put an old towel under him to catch the inevitable wee. Doesn't help sleep-wise, but if you are desperate to be able to put him down so you can at least drink a cup of tea or something, it might give you a few minutes respite.

(PS - love the fact that phones think you are more likely to be texting the word 'cake' than 'able'. Mine does that too - obv knows me well!)

I don't think my supply is a problem as he sleeps fine in my arms. Do think that Dh would like to supplement though as ds is very small (but gaining). He's just above the 2nd centile after starting on the 25th. On the rare occasions ds sleeps more than 2 hours at night my boobs are like rocks!

Stupid question but how long should his naps be? How many should he have a day?

all babies are different, but mine can often only manage 1hr-90mins awake at at time, which means i have to start settling well before 90 mins to avoid overtired screaming.

perhaps you could experiment a bit with different times? i have found that by the time dd2 looks tired, she is usually overtired, and she needs to go off to bed when she's quiet, calm and still.

Oh and knitter i would love to sling him more but he seems to hate it! If will scream himself to sleep in the wilkinet if you are moving but will not go into a ring sling or stretchy wrap at all. He shrieks and arches his back and becomes hysterical.

Everything i do is wrong

Have you ever tried expressing milk and bottle feeding it? I am sure your supply is good, but given his weight and sleep problems could it be he is not gettinguch milk? Maybe he is not drinking effectively? This could also explain the wind at night, as u explain he keeps pulling of the breast 20-50 times so maybe he only gets the foremilk from letdowns which could make him very gassy and in need for more all the time.
I would try expressing when your breast are full and feeding by bottle or spoon to see if it makes a difference. What do health visitors say about the weight gain? Ad have you seen a lactation consultant about ds pulling of the breast so often?

All babies are different so hard to say how long naps should be, my 16 week old used to have several 1-3 hour naps per day but now that she sleeps 12h at night (interupted by 1-2 feeds), she is more likely to have three or four 45-90min naps per day.

Hang in there and don't let anyone tell you you are spoiling your baby! Nobody knows your baby better than you! My dd can't go to sleep herself either, i never understood what "putting the baby down to sleep" meant! I either nurse her tobsleep or dh carries her bouncy chair through the flat, or she falls asleep in the pram and wakes up when i stop.

Oh another thought on ds falling asleepnbut waking up when you put him down? How long do u wait till u try putting him down? U need to wait till he is in deep sleep (no twitching, loose limbs), so if he falls asleep in your arms try waiting 20-30min before putting him down. I know when u're exhausted it is veery tempting to put him down sooner, it is worth waitig quite long. Good luck!!

You're not doing anything wrong! No one is perfect and as far as your little one is concerned, you are doing everything right!! I had the same problem with my boy, I started him on solids at 4 months because breast milk wasn't enough for him. So much better since (6 months now) My boy just all of the sudden got a routine, bed at 7, wakes at 11 for feed, then again at 5 and up at 7:30. Don't stress out, maybe he's teething, again my boy got his first tooth at 3 1/2 months. It WILL get better, just takes time. Sounds like u need a break! Can anyone look after him for a few hours so you can catch up on sleep? :)

MoonUnit, thanks - yes, I think I do need to get a bit more organised with the nap times first as they are all over the place. I need to prioritise this I think - I have until now been prioritising getting out of the house (was diagnosed with mild pnd) but I think ds needs more routine than I am giving him.

We are persevering with the dummy, he now tolerates it if you hold it for him. I never thought I would say that (was totally against dummies pre-ds...)

Dotty yes, he loves nappy-free time :) when he's in a good mood he is just delicious!

I found my day got much more manageable once I got a bit more of a routine going - I think I dedicated a week when ds was 3 or 4 months old just to getting three naps a day He's still a chronic 45 minute napper, but I aim for at least one "good" nap of 2 hours a day (often I have to resettle him twice for this so it's 45mins-resettle-45mins-resettle-45mins).

At 3ish months I was aiming for a routine of
7am - up
9-10am - nap
12-2pm - nap
4-5pm - nap
6pm - bath and bedtime routine
7pm- bed

He didn't always sleep for the whole alloted period, and at first would only nap while in motion or with a nipple in his mouth. You could aim for an extra nap in there if your ds can't stay awake 2 hours.

By 5 months he was down to two naps a day, between 10-11am and 2pm-4pm. Now at 6 months he actually goes to sleep in his cot at least once a day, and no longer needs the white noise or dummy.

Just to add to the other posters, it WILL get better, and I feel your pain. My DD (now 6 months) was a dreadful sleeper at first and would only ever sleep on me, bit by bit over the last 4 months things got better, I still remember the day she first fell asleep in her pram rather than on me. Agree with everything MoonUnitAlpha says - get yourself and DC into a rough routine, even if they end up napping on you during that time it is a start, and once they start to anticipate a nap then you can work on getting them your DC to sleep on their own - I also remember my DD taking her first nap in her cot, for all of 10 mins. You've had loads of good advice so won't repeat what everyone else has said but keep at it and you will get there, there is light at the end of the tunnel!!

hi there plastic - you are not alone. i've had a really terrible day today, feeling totally miserable about my own LO's total refusal to settle during the night. reading your message made me realise things could be a lot worse and that i'm not the only one struggling. i agree with what everyone else has said about trying to get some sort of routine (nothing obsessive) - it will give you a bit of a feeling of control over things. we are in a semi routine and my DD, who is only five weeks old, does at least settle to sleep at 7pm. the problems start at 11pm and nights are dreadful, with a lot of the problems you describe.
but i'm trying to remind myself she's only tiny and it won't last forever.

Poor you. It will get better, he is just little and loves you!

Have you tried wrapping him in a fleecy blanket in your arms when he goes to sleep? That way you should be able to transfer him to a cot when he's asleep as the transition from your arms won't be so chilly (does that make sense?).

He also sounds like he likes to suck to sleep, so persist with the dummy. Maybe get someone else to put him down for sleeps as he can smell your milk.

Also, does he have colic? Or reflux? That would account for the fussing when out and about.

There are no hard and fast rules as to how much or when he should be sleeping - they are all different.

You are doing really well, don't doubt yourself.

Hello not much new to add other than I second ruling out reflux and colic - speak to gp or hv. Was it a traumatic birth in anyway? I have a theory that some babies take a long time to recover from stressful births (my dd being one of them bless her!) I would def implement a routine (the one moonunitalpha said is pretty much exactly what my dd was doing as well), be consistant, keep going with a dummy (I would have been in a padded cell if I hadn't used one for my dd!!!) Swaddling? My dd wouldn't settle unless she was tightly swaddled.

It will get eaiser - of course, babies are hard work, they are babies!!!

Thank you for all your replies.

Sleeplessister, Imisssleep - Am I sensing a theme with names!? I feel a bit sick about the thought of being this sleep deprived in another 3 months.

Gah, awful, awful night - finally managed to get him to sleep at 11pm, he then woke every hour to feed and by 3am was refusing the breast when I was lying down. As soon as I picked him up and fed him in the cradle hold he fell asleep. When I put him down, he woke up. Picked him up again - asleep. Repeated til 6.30 when I piled some blankets behind me and slept for an hour with him on my chest. Then dh took him and I had another hour. Grim.

Chestnut/girliefriend he has definitely had colic (I think this has now abated as there was no real screaming, just thrashing and grunting). The cranial osteopath we took him to thought he had some silent reflux but our gp disagrees.

Perhaps the worse thing is that family and friends seem to think that it is the way I am treating him that is making him like this, rather than that I am treating him like this because of the way he is. Under quite a lot of pressure to get him in his pram/basket/cot :(

If it doesn't improve keep going back to the gp re the silent reflux and ask for a peads ref to get him checked out, it does sound extreme. Could you take it in turns with your dh so you get a better nights sleep? I think feeding him every hour is too much, I would feed him at 11pm and then try and keep him going for at least 2-3 hours. If he has got a sore tummy feeding him too often isn't going to help. Good luck.

It makes me very upset that people close to you are adding to your stress by judging you rather than HELPING you!!

I would take him to your GP. I would also insist they give you something for colic. Have you tired Gripe Water? Saved our lives! Also, get some plastic syringes from boots, that way you know he will be getting the correct dosage of it. Trying to feed a crying/screaming/hysterical baby gripe water with a spoon is impossible!

OP - I hope you are ok today, it's desperate isn't it? You are not doing anything wrong. I have rather taken the approach that the first three months of a baby's life are like a fourth trimester of pregnancy. Therefore, cuddles, rocking, love and nurturing are just what is required. I can't really give you a solution but I can tell you what works for me though. My baby is 14 weeks too. I won't feed more frequently than every hour and a half even during a growth spurt because I want to make sure dd gets hind milk rather than snacking. I am gradually drawing out the time between feeds so that they are three hourly but it's early days. I use a dummy because she is happy with it. In patches where sleep eludes her I try all manner of things: swaddling, rocking, bouncing gently on the birthing ball, going around the block in the pram...we also co-sleep because it's better than no sleep. I am developing my positioning to find ways of being more comfy - it can be awful. You are doing a fab job, you baby will grow to be secure in your love and when he is ready he will gradually begin to sleep on his own. Try to stay calm and give yourself over to it - it won't last forever I promise! All of this said, you should rile out medical issues with your gp too. Hope you have a good evening, SB x

Poor you plasticspoon - it's such a nightmare when they're not sleeping and family etc keep advising 'you've got to get him napping in his cot' - if only it were that simple!

Two things - firstly, I don't know how often your DS sleeps for 2.5/3 hrs, but a nap that long would - I think - disrupt my DS's sleep. He is falling into a pattern of napping for between 30 and 60 mins (four naps a day) and longer naps seem to make him sleep less well at night. I mention this because often the advice seems to be to get as much sleep as possible into them in the day, but little and often sometimes works better.(sometimes DS only goes 60-90 mins between naps in the middle of the day)

Second, I got DS into our sidecar cot by continuing to feed him lying down - I prop a pillow against the head end and sort of lean on that. Hoping to stop doing it eventually but it works for now... I think he doesn't quite realise he's not in the bed with me IYSWIM! But I can imagine that wouldn't work for everyone.

Good luck, hope it gets better.