is letting a baby cry while sitting next to them as bad as CIO and what else can I do? (long, but desperate)

[MamaChris]

I have almost 4mo twins. They will sleep in sling/arms for up to 2 hours, but to get them into a cot involves rocking to sleep, after which they will sleep for up to 30 mins and wake tired, needing to nap again within an hour. For naps, I have been putting dt2 in a sling, and rocking dt1, but my back/shoulders/pelvis are close to breaking and I just can't do it any more.

Today dt2 was crying with tiredness before I'd even managed to get myself dressed, and I just couldn't face holding both babies. The alternative was to let him cry while rocking dt1 to sleep, but she's taking longer and longer to rock to sleep. Instead I sat beside him (dt2) on the bed while I fed dt1 to sleep (after feeding to sleep, I can't put her in a cot without waking, so she stays in my arms). dt2 cried, and I had a hand on his tummy and kept talking to him. It took 15 minutes to go to sleep, which I thought wasn't bad (he can cry for that long in a sling too). I hadn't planned to do this, but felt like I physically couldn't do anything else this morning.

When he woke up again (after 30 mins, still crying) I thought I should do the same again - for consistency. But it took an hour's crying for him to get back to sleep for another 30 mins.

I feel really awful. I've read and believe the stuff on controlled crying being bad at this age. Surely what I did is the same? But I don't know what else to do - I need to get at least one baby to nap in a cot. I can't keep the sling/rocking combo going. There haven't been any naps without at least one baby in my arms for weeks unless a friend comes to sling one. What else can I do?

I don't really see how it's different to you having him in the sling and him crying, you haven't left him, he know's you are there. DS has cried himself to sleep in my arms before, I don't think it's CIO at all. That's when you shut the door on them imo.

thanks LitR, if true that would be good to know. I couldn't find anything searching.

Cosmosis, he hasn't cried for as long as an hour in the sling for a few weeks (but did have 3 hour crying sessions as a little baby). Perhaps because he now associates the sling with comfort?

I'm not interested in getting them to sleep for long periods without me, am happy to stay while they go to sleep, but I do need them to learn to go to sleep in a cot, and have no idea how else to "teach" them.

i honestly don't think 15 mins crying can be that damaging, especially if you're in the room. think of all the colicky babies who cry for 3 hours of an evening, albeit in arms.

i let 3mo dd2 cry to sleep in her cot today. she cries before every sleep, and my back was too knackered for the sling, which is her preferred method of going to sleep. I was right there next to her, and she cried for 10mins. She is 15lb and much as i'd like to, i can't rock her all day anymore.

i take my hat off to you managing twins (and a toddler iirc), and think wanting them to sleep in a cot is a reasonable expectation.

CBS, yes, I felt ok about the 15 mins (he does cry before almost every sleep too). But the next time it took an hour, which felt too long. But I worried that if I then put him in the sling he wouldn't "learn" that once he's in the cot that's where he will go to sleep. Or should I pick him up if he cries too long?

ds1 was thankfully in nursery today.

I nearly drove myself mad trying to get my two off at the same time by feeding to sleep and rocking. But as they get bigger its just too hard to do with both at the same time. One of them ends up screaming no matter what you do.

I used controlled crying ie comforting every few minutes whilst being the room till eventually they went to sleep. Its hard (I probably cried longer than they did) but they both eventually learned to settle themselves.
(I'm not sure what CIO is?)

I've read plenty of threads where people come down hard against controlled crying and say 'oh but I couldn't let a baby cry' but when you've got two you don't have an option really.

thanks for understanding potplant! I think picking him up to comfort him would be worse. I know his crying pattern now and just moving him resets it to the beginning, which is why I chose not to pick him up. But I guess it's the same sort of thing you did.

It's hard because leaving him crying for so long goes against every instinct I have.

You do what you have to do to stay sane! Once I put mine in the cot and stood in the garden for 10 mins to calm down! I felt like the worst person alive but I couldn't stand another minute of it!

Will they sleep in the pram? When I got really frazzled I used to walk round the park with them for an hour.

wow - I would just like to say how amazing you are mamchris! I am in total awe of anyone who has twins and you sound like you are doing a fabulous job. I think mothers have far too much pressure on them these days to be perfect parents when IMO, there is no such thing.

Crying is a baby's only form of communication and doesn't always mean desperately unhappy but must also mean - "oh mum I'd prefer to be picked up!" What you did will not have any lasting affect on your baby and is necessary sometimes (if very difficult and heart wrenching for you).

Keep up the good work and give yourself a break - they will be just fine.

Have you tried wrapping them in their slings? I don't have twins and hats off to you for walking them both to sleep for 4 months. DD1 would only sleep in her sling and when she reached 6 months and too heavy for me I wrapped her losely in her sling and laid her on bed with me lieing next to her. She cried a bit but having the sling as a comforter definately helped as she associated with sleeping. I eventually cut the sling up into a comfort blanket which she slept with. I personally couldn't leave either of mine crying in a different room (tho like potplant I have put DD1 and DD2 in seperate rooms and gone into the garden just to breathe)but feel that being with them is different. I know both my DDs cry differently if I'm with them.

dt1 will sleep in buggy, but dt2 only rarely (mostly he'll cry just being put in it). but buggy/sling combo can work, forgot that one the last couple of weeks, thanks.

gummy I certainly don't feel like I am doing an amazing job. but thanks for thinking it.

sling in cot is a good idea Hannispan. dt2 often calms down a bit just seeing the sling come out, so will give that one a try tomorrow. think I am going to try another nap like today tomorrow. not convinced that being with him makes it ok, but something has to break in this sleep thing before I do.

You poor thing; bad naps are horrible when you've only got one, let alone two plus a toddler. I think you're doing a fantastic job just to keep everyone alive. :)

I had a horrible time with DS's naps at this age too - I think it's very common.

Don't beat yourself up about the crying. Whilst I'm generally in the anti-CC camp, I think you can only do what you can do and frankly, with twins it's about survival and anything else is a luxury.

I think that attended crying is very different from being left on your own to cry. I think there's a difference in cortisol (stress hormone) levels since babies experience less stress when crying with someone there, so the effects of crying are less bad. And apparently babies are especially receptive to touch between 2 and 4 months so the fact that you were touching him will have made a real difference.

It sounds to me like they're overtired by the time you're trying to get them off, especially DT2. Once he's crying with tiredness he's almost certainly been awake too long and will find it hard to go to sleep. You need to start the going-to-sleep process before the tired crying starts IMO.

Sleeping for only 30 mins and then waking up tired is another sign of overtiredness. It's different to waking at the end of one sleep cycle and struggling to stay asleep into the next cycle, because the LO is very unlikely to go back off by any means.

I'd try for a shorter time awake tomorrow if you can. Many babies that age can't manage more than 1.5 hours awake without getting overtired, and some as little as 45 mins. The length of 'happy awake time' tends to increase as the day goes on, so the time between waking & the first nap is usually the shortest of all.

I'd watch for the slightest sign of tiredness from DT2 and try to get him off at the first yawn. It sounds like DT1 was less tired/distressed, so it might be that she can go a little bit longer between naps - in which case you could try getting DT2 off first, then DT1.

That age is really tough as there's a pretty short 'drowsy window' in which it's easy to get them to sleep, and if you miss it, it's really hard work (and they get very upset). That does improve with time, and the window gets longer, but that's not much help to you now.

It's extra tough with non-identical twins because they may not naturally want to sleep at the same time so their sleepy windows may not coincide.

With DT1, could you feed her lying down on the bed so that you have the possibility of moving away? Some people find that putting their rolled-up pyjamas next to the baby helps them not miss your presence enough to wake up.

I'd try a cot nap for the first nap of the day if you can. It's supposed to be the easiest nap one for babies to take as they're better rested after the night & less likely to be overtired.

Another thing which helped me was to have some music / words which you say when they're actually going to sleep. You need to do it first when they're actually just drifting off. After about 3 days they've learnt to associate those sounds with feeling tired & sleepy, so you can sing / say them when you're trying to help them go off. It made a real difference with DS.

I wonder whether your DT2 might be a baby who needs to release tension by crying which would explain the crying before sleep. There's more useful info on the AskMoxie blog on tension increasers / releasers and on putting down a sleeping baby (scroll down a bit to find them). IMO the comments on her posts are always worth a read as well.

If you do need to keep rocking, could you use a rocking chair? I use an Ikea Poang chair to rock DS to sleep in: he's 13 m.o. and 26lbs +, and I don't find it a strain as the chair does the movement for you. It's not too expensive. Another alternative might be something like a baby hammock. At least that would let you rock both of them at once. Or a cot rocker?

The other thing that occurred to me is whether there's any chance DT2 might have reflux? I've no experience of it myself but the crying in the pram but not the sling might suggest something like that.

HTH. I'll have a look at my books on sleep tomorrow and see if they have anything to add about twins.

Hope you have a reasonable night. :)

Have you tried putting them both in a Pushchair and taking them for a walk? You need to make sure they're both well-fed immediately beforehand (though I'm sure you know that) and then just bung them in the buggy, lay them down, cover them with the hood/ a cloth and go walking. The air and exercise will do you good, plus you'll be rocking them both to sleep. And they'll learn to sleep without needing to be held all the time.

Oh and try White noise - define a radian and play it LOUD. It was a lifesaver for us with DD. If you have a smartphone there's a White noise app so it's portable too! Just make sure you switch off the phone connection first so you don't get interrupted with calls as the kids are dropping off...

thanks for such detailed replies. you've given me lots to think about :)

thankfully nights are ok as we co sleep and both babies are happy to feed to sleep at night.

they are rarely awake more than an hour, and generally the first nap is within an hour of waking. I think yesterday morning was only about 20 minutes, but was unusual because dt2 had been awake till 11 then woke up when I got up to do breakfast for ds1 (so perhaps I shouldn't have called it a nap as he hadn't finished his night sleep). but yes, they could still be overtired. some days they end up with 6 naps. if they wake early and I'm still getting ds1 ready when they first get tired I do often ignore it. or I could be misinterpreting the crying - dt2 will reliably cry if not entertained for 5 mins. If the crying doesn't stop when I play/pick him up and/or it's been an hour since last sleep, I assume it's tiredness.

luckily (or not) they do tend to have similar sleep needs, but dt1 is more placid and distractable (she will stop crying and smile if you entertain her). this has been good when dt2 used to cry a lot at night, but means it's getting harder to make sure she gets enough sleep because she's so bloody interested in the curtains/walls/my face/dt2's crying... as she's so placid I am getting away with her not getting enough sleep on bad days, but it's not ideal (her needs are getting ignored on a regular basis because dt2 is better at demanding). if I catch her drowsy window, which is more obvious than dt2, I can get her to sleep in a few minutes, but otherwise it can take 30+ mins of rocking/buggy/sling. so if dt2 goes to sleep first he can be waking before she's gone to sleep.

yes, dt2 seems to release tension by crying, don't think he's reflux-y. he cries in the sling too, but now for only a few minutes. he has almost never gone to sleep daytimes without some crying. I've been trying some sleepy words, but need to be more consistent at using them as they fall asleep rather than just when they're upset. the rocking chair is great for dt2, less good for dt1 because it's in ds1's room and there's too much for dt1 to look at. but if I was better at catching her drowsy window I could probably make more use of it. I'll try putting a t shirt or sling next to the in the next cot nap. the buggy can also work if he's not tired when I put him in (but it's still a 30 minute nap). haven't tried white noise, but worth a try with an untuned radio.

I'm going to focus today on getting that first nap earlier, and in the bed. and starting subsequent naps earlier too. feeling a bit more positive that I've got a few things to try. fingers crossed.

Try the Baby Whisperer techniques - I won't go into details here, as I've posted many times before, but basically it's a specific way of getting your baby(ies) to soothe themselves to sleep in their cots, so when they wake they can go back to sleep themselves. It's not CC, instead you stay with them. It worked dramatically well for my DS when he was 8 months. The author also helps a lot with nap routines (it's all about watching for their sleep cues and establishing a rhythm, rather than strict routines a la GF. The technique for young babies is 'shush-pat' and for older babies (I think from 4 months) is 'pick-up, put-down). There are a couple of books and a website - the website (now a forum) gives more detailed info than the books actually - look for posts from the moderators. Good luck.

Let us know how the day's been today.

What's their adjusted age (I'm assuming they were a bit prem?)

It does get easier as their body clocks mature (normally around 3/4 + months from due date) as the circadian rhythm means there are good times of day to sleep (often 9am / 1pm ish) which help them fall into more of a pattern.

Newborns often do 15-30 min naps (apparently - my DS was a 2-4 hour sleeper in the early days ) so if they're still at that stage, then 30 min naps are less of a worry IMO. But by around 3 months they usually suggest overtiredness IME. It's perhaps worth aiming for 45 mins awake time.

(Awake times include soothing to sleep time - so if awake time is an hour, the aim is that they're falling asleep after an hour, not that you start trying for the nap after an hour. I used to struggle to get myself up & dressed before DS needed his first (sling) nap of the day, that first awake interval was so short.)

About 6 naps sounds like a lot. I'm guessing that's caused by either:
(a) still sleeping more like a newborn than the average 4m.o.,
(b) not sleeping for long enough at each nap so needing more of them
(c) still wanting a late bedtime (an earlier bedtime usually develops around 3/4 months, maybe a bit later for some babies) so their day is longer.

a and c will improve as their biological clocks mature.

OTOH, my DS also does 30 min naps if he's working on a big developmental spurt. Those early days are full of spurts so it's hard to know if that's going on.

Have you tried swaddling? My DS used to only nap well in the sling at around 2-3 months and he loved being swaddled, right up till he was 5.5 months (he struggled to sleep without it).

I'd also recommend a look at the BW techniques. I don't like her approach to what babies 'should' do sleep-wise (and her bf advice is complete rubbish), but some of the strategies can be helpful. IME pick up-put down doesn't work for tension releasing babies as it just winds them up & overstimulates them; it works better for tension increasers.

I had real problems with DS being too excited in the world around him to want to sleep when he was around 3 months old, but it really improved with time.

"define a radian"?? Autocorrect is such a pain sometimes. I meant "detune a radio"!

Glad you're feeling more upbeat and less trapped today.

Speedy. I was thinking that it was no wonder I could never get my two off to sleep as I don't know what a radian is!

I will check the BW site, thanks.

today started well, but ended poor. like this:

9.00 wake up
9.45 start nap time, cry/feed combo
10.20 asleep - both got 40 mins
11.45 tired, but I was in supermarket
12.25 fell asleep in car, 35 mins
1.45 start another cry/feed nap
2.00 unexpected visitor
2.30 try nap again with very tired babies
2.45 asleep - 25 mins
3.30 both very tired. dt2 in sling to sleep - 2 hours. dt1 wouldn't sleep
4.30 dp put dt1 in sling - 30 mins
6.30 both very tired. dt2 back in sling
7.00 dt2 asleep - 30 mins
7.10 dt1 fed to sleep - 20 mins
8.00 to bed dt1 fed to sleep, dt2 too overtired, so cried in my arms, falling asleep for a few minutes several times but waking back up. finally calmed down and fed to sleep about 9.15 - 30 mins. now awake but not unhappy

so 5 naps today. they weren't prem (38+4) so normal development should apply. looking forward to that maturing body clock. how can you get anything done with awake periods of only 45 mins?

I think they would probably rather go to bed at 6.30, but we try and sling them downstairs till ds1 is asleep otherwise dt2's crying keeps him awake, and I really can't cope with overtired ds1 the next day.

on the positive side I am feeling better about the crying to sleep after reading some of that moxie site last night and rationalising a bit.

now need to wait for dt2 to be ready for sleep again.

Oh, I'm so glad you've had some improvement at leaset, and feel a bit better about DT2's crying. I do think he sounds like a baby who just needs to cry. Moxie is very sensible IMO.

On the crying issue, I think there's quite a difference between making a baby cry (e.g. putting them in a cot & leaving them, when using the sling would mean they don't cry) and letting them cry (when they'd cry whatever you do).

Hopefully the awake time will increase before too long - I think the awake time is linked to the length of nap. I agree, 45 mins is too short to be of any use to anyone.

Looking at HSHHC, it says naps tend to lengthen only at 12 to 16 weeks of age, counting from the due date, so hopefully that should be soon!

He says that consistency in how you soothe to sleep for naps helps the babies learn faster how to go to sleep on their own. So e.g. always slinging in the day will help them get it faster. (But I'd not beat yourself up about trying too hard to do that.) Day & night sleep seems to be organised by different bits of the brain, so it doesn't matter if (e.g.) you feed to sleep at night but not in the day.

He says that an early bedtime is helpful because it regularises and lengthens naps. Could you put them to bed in a carry cot or something downstairs and take them up again once DS1 is asleep? It's tough with all three of them - tough for you all.

it's the "putting to bed" bit that would be hard, I think. they sleep well at night, once they get to sleep, I think because they're lying next to me (one on either side). can't do that without a big bed, so compromise with slings which usually produce good sleep if they're not so overtired.

my plan, such as it is, is to get them used to the bedtime routine (lasts all of 5-10 mins), get them used to sleeping not touching me, then move their bedtime to before ds1's, so they're asleep by the time dp brings ds1 to bed. but I need to get dt2 going to sleep reliably when we come to bed for that to work.

Potplant I don't know how you can show your face round here with your scant knowledge of radians. You should feel the burning shame of ignorance. Tut.

Sounds like a good plan, OP - it's blimmin' tricky this sleep business, isn't it?

Just one more thing I thought of that's worth a mention: if a baby is tired & ready for sleep it normally takes max 15-20 mins to get the to sleep. If it takes longer, either they've been awake too long and they're overtired, or they've not been awake long enough and aren't tired enough yet. When DS was tiny, we suffered from the first problem, and when he was about 3 months we suffered from the latter!