a breastfeeding/sleeping question

[GrizzlyMacDuff]

or rather, me telling you how it is and you telling me how to change it, ok?

DS 13 months, sleeps in our room, in his own cot til about 4am, then in with us most nights. breastfed, and currently sleeps/feeds the following pattern. It is tiring and I want to stop it. Although, it is significantly better than it was...

breastfeed, then into bed around 7-7:30pm. a routine which is loose, some flexibility due to having an older child to put to bed too.

wake somewhere between 11pm and 1am. Occasionally before then, around 10pm, sometimes as late as 3am, but mostly 12:30am or so. Quick breastfeed, back to sleep. He wakes crying at this point.

He wakes for the morning somewhere between 5-6am, wanting milk and will suckle for about 1 hour. Day normally starts around 6:30am, when my other child also wakes, so if he wakes at 5am, he feeds/dozes/suckles for 1.5 hours. If I try to get him back to sleep and remove from boob at this time he cries, arches back, generally upset, and once he stops doing that, he is awake.

so, that is the consistent routine, that happens every night without fail, with the very occasional later sleep before waking for boob at 6:30am, or breastfeed then sleep without boob til 7am.

However, he then more often than not, and recently seems to always wake another 1-3 times. a further one time is common/usual, but more is becoming regular again (he used to wake through the night hourly). He does not wake upset, he wakes, stands/bounces in his cot, sort of clicking his fingers at me (i am certain if he could click them he would) going 'diddle diddle eeat? 'diddle diddle eat?' at me, and getting more and more impatient if I don't respond!

I normally attempt to console him without milk, but after a fashion (and some stonking middle of the night headbuts in the face) give in, so i know that I have made a Rod for my Own Back.

Last night, he went to sleep at 7:15pm, woke - 12:30am, 3am, 4:30am, 5am, 6:30am. When he woke at 5am I refused to feed him, i cuddled him, while he screamed and cried 'eaaaat, booobooo' at me, but went to sleep without milk.

He has just started walking, just started being able to say 'booboo' and ask for milk himself, just started being able to communicate with the whole family to some extent, so developmentally he is going through changes - is this why he wakes so often at the moment? is it because I feed him? Is it because he is in our room? He clearly can go through for a while without milk, and often does as he on occasion sleeps 7:30pm-3am (7.5hrs) so can't be that I have created a baby who relies only on boob to sleep, or else he would not sleep that long right? or am i wrong?

I long for a solid sleep of 6 hours. Or, 5 hours, that will be ok.

at finger clicking! Brilliant. But obviously not in the early hours of the morning.

Around 13 months, my DS's sleep went a bit mental (not that it's great anyway) - with a developmental leap. There is one around this age so that will be part of it. He also gets wind - his sleep patterns are like yours, can sleep through until 3ish - but will wake up wanting a feed and will pass a fair bit of wind and resettle.

You could try putting him in his own room? Is that an option? So when he stirs, he doesn't see you and want a feed (not that it'll work every time). I say this because I think my DS gets too excited sometimes if we stay too close to his cot when resettling him (but he doesn't like us leaving the room until he's asleep!)

How's his eating in the day? I keep reading that my DS (15 months) should be able to go through without night feeds but he seems to need at least one

Change the routine a bit?
We gave ds2 a little cuddle and bottle of warm ish water (or milk if he was still crying)

I was ready to stop breastfeeding at 12 months. My dh bascically took him for a week. It worked. Boy was he tired after the week!!

Could be def be teething and developmental stuff that's making yours wake more than necessary. For him is is normal to do this, I'd say - learnt more tings in day, more dreams or insecurities, awareness etc.

I think it's normal and that you'll get where you want pretty soon. Mine kind of weaned himself and with us feeding him more in day and ignoring the not so serious moany crying it got better.
Good luck!

I was in a similar position until recently with a 10mo BF baby waking almost hourly for milk through the night - he'd come in with me around midnight just so I could get some sleep. I've been doing PUPD for the last week with him which seems to be having great results so far. It was HARD the first night as he did cry quite a bit and I spent a long time picking up and putting down, but he seemed to get the hang of it quickly and night 3 he slept for 8 HOURS! Miraculous for us, I'll tell you!
You could also try offering water instead maybe?

Whatever you try it'll probably be hard going for a little while as you'll be changing habits and he'll have a new regime to get used to, so be consistent with your new approach whatever you choose to do.

I would leave making any changes for when he's in a good mood, rather than struggling with developmental stuff, as it'll be much easier then!

I was in a similar position until recently with a 10mo BF baby waking almost hourly for milk through the night - he'd come in with me around midnight just so I could get some sleep. I've been doing PUPD for the last week with him which seems to be having great results so far. It was HARD the first night as he did cry quite a bit and I spent a long time picking up and putting down, but he seemed to get the hang of it quickly and night 3 he slept for 8 HOURS! Miraculous for us, I'll tell you!
You could also try offering water instead maybe?

Whatever you try it'll probably be hard going for a little while as you'll be changing habits and he'll have a new regime to get used to, so be consistent with your new approach whatever you choose to do.

I would leave making any changes for when he's in a good mood, rather than struggling with developmental stuff, as it'll be much easier then!

Balls, sorry for duplicate post

woo i cannot physically feed him more! I saw the HV a while ago when his sleep was appalling and she said give him another meal before bed, so we moved his dinner time a bit earlier and give him another meal. He basically gets fed something to eat every 2 hours! He has just had, for example 2/3 slice of toast/butter and a bowl of ready brek made with around 4oz of full fat milk. He will have, at around 10ish, half a banana plus a yoghurt (sometimes he has two!).

Yesterday, he had dinner early as we had NY roast at 3pm, so he had breakfast (half toast, one weetabix) snack, breastfeed, lunch, breastfeed, early dinner, pudding, milk, porridge, half banana, breastfeed, plus a couple of chocolates (bad mother emoticon), some breadsticks! I seemed to spend all day feeding him yesterday!

iggly he went in his own room at 9 months. And his sleep went from bad to so terrible my Doc prescribed me temazipam and told me to get DH to take care of him for a few days and for me to get some sleep, my boss gave me a week of work and I looked like a corpse. He woke at 3am, and refused to sleep, was desperately unhappy so after a month we moved him back and he improved significantly. He went through a period of waking at 3am/4:30am and if we pretended he was not making noise, he would get up, moan a bit, realise we were not responding and lay back down. But recently he has realised if he leans over, and does this clicky thing, and refuses to stop, followed by screeching, i give in eventually.

I do think he is ready for his own bedroom again now. Funnily enough, we went away for christmas day (til late that night) and he slept great while in with his sister, I went to check on them to find him dozingly chatting away to her while she slept!) so, not great, but he was really settled.

And, also now you mention it, he has actually had some wind recently too, while feeding and bottom/back rub while feeding he passes hard wind, not just at night either. I had not really considered that...

wow also, a little cuddle in the middle of the night is not an option, he does not do little cuddles but this violent back arching/chucking himself across me or DH. in fact, if DH so much as touches him when he wants 'booboo' be prepared for a broken nose! (seriously, he smacked DHs nose so hard with this head flinging we thought it was broken for a while, and DH did not talk to me for a while as I laughed a bit ).

We have tried routines, and do a form of CC i guess to get him to bed, or did, it was not as harsh as CC, but involved letting him cry a bit before going in, and DH going in not me, did this to get him able to settle without boob which he can now do at bedtime. Tried that, and PU/PD when he was in his own room and it just did not work (did pu/pd with DD and it worked well for her). but might give it a try again. But I don't think it will work while he is in with us as we are right next to him so he will just get right back up again and i can see him/he can see me. I think we will look at moving him this week.

We've had some success with fennel tea for wind - just needs a teaspoon mixed with a bit of water while he's in his bath. Works on DH too

I also have to be careful what I eat (no dairy or soya) and what he eats - no fruit or windy veg after lunch! Otherwise he'll have terrible wind and will only want feeding for relief.

oh I wonder then, does banana cause wind? i ask as he has started over the last week to absolutely love banana as he can hold it himself, and just realised this. He went off it and I stopped offering a while ago, passed him a banana and he scoffed the lot, so has been having a banana each day now...

I think bananas can cause constipation and wind. A banana a day is a lot for a little belly! Might be worth cutting down or out completely (with anything else wind inducing) for a week and see what happens? Can you give him other finger food instead? E.g breadsticks with mashed avocado/yoghurt?

did not even consider it might be too much for him, seeing as he has been wolfing it down! He does eat plenty of other finger food so will replace it, he has had none today. Although, he has had no tea at all. He was in a great mood all morning, had a good nap of two hours (most unusual!) at his normal nap time, ate an ok lunch, not a huge amount but reasonable, ate some scrambled egg at a friends house at about 3pm, another nap in the car, then when we came home he started crying (4:30pm), inconsolable, would only settle on boob, dozed for an hour, refused to eat anything and cried non-stop apart from his doze until 6:45pm. Gave him some calpol (a fight not normally a problem) and he refused more boob despite seeming to want it. So we had a bath and he is now fine, but refusing food, and not going to sleep.

Funny now you mentioned wind and I am keeping an eye, he has had two very solid poos today (omg smelly too!) and wind, also burped after feeding and crying, quite loudly which he does not normally do...

Poor thing! Maybe he's coming down with something? That can upset DS's tummy. Also how is he with eggs? Another wind inducing food for DS (and DH too )

I spend most of my time thinking about DS and his wind. Can't be healthy

Well he used to eat eggs and then went off them, in fact has gone off most food he likes, seems to prefer bland sludge, or food he 'hunts-gathers' himself from our plates! The scrambled egg he took from my friend's plate , so he has not had it for a while. And it had garlic in it? maybe that did not help, although he only had a little. He has just settled, finally, after tossing and turning, rather than crying, and did a massive fart beforehand, so you might have identified something there! I wonder if he is off a lot of food as it does not settle on his belly?

Although, he does have gunk in his eye, and snot. But he has had snot for weeks now, on and off, had a chest infection a little while ago, and while recovered with ABs, not fully I guess, winter stuff i suppose.

Typical though, as he has not had tea he is going to be a pain all night, and I had intended to try not to feed him after midnight, but that won't work as he has missed dinner and tea, and pudding.

I have noticed also, he has not really drunk very much water. He does have my milk which provides the hydration i guess but he normally drinks a bit more than he has recently from his beaker, not so interested.

I hope his night isn't too bad. Do think about trying fennel tea (or even peppermint), as it can help. I found an old thread where people were talking about their windy babies as DS has been having so much trouble with it over the last few weeks.

Last night DS slept much better after a small tea, hardly any biscuits and peppermint+fennel tea. But he also had a chest infection and cough which seems to have gone last night after giving him some inhaler. So who knows what made things better

But I guess winter is a devil for bugs etc which can also put them out of sorts! And the dreaded teeth - DS has his molars and canines making a long drawn out appearance (you can see his gums changing shape) which also gives him grief!

ok, last night was shit. just terrible. He ate nothing so fed constantly. Tonight, he did much of the same so i drugged the poor boy and he finally ate weetabix. still only half his normal tea, but he ate fine in the day as had calpol running through his veins.

I shall not expect much better tonight, which is typical as i am back at work tomorrow after my two week break where i had hoped to have a little rest and a little improvement on the whole sleep thing! Oh well, it won't be like this when he is 13 eh

poor u. i really feel for u. having similar prob with ds 1 yr.

u could b right about the development thing disturbing sleep, it seems that wen my son is doin this he has woke to show us a new trick. me n dh have started with night time weaning n dh goin in to settle him more. get him used to not having boob on demand. this has shown an improvement but its a long process so dont feel guilty about weening u can still feed enjoyably in the day n not b so shattered. i feel guilty too but the bond is still the same n it will benefit u both in the long run. good luck and wishing u some sleep.

Put him in his own bedroom - get dh to wear a helmet and deal with night demands! I'm harsh, but your ds can smell your milk and has learnt that eventually you will give in and provide what he wants. Clicking fingers, hilarious! Although if that was my child i'd be very p'd off!! Poor you, sleep deprivation is just the absolute pits. Good luck!

gracie and pink you are both right, so last night i started. I fed him when he woke at midnight, and again when he woke at 1:30am, then he woke at 2:30am, 3:30am, 4:30am and 5:10am. I picked him up, cuddled him (or rather, held him in some kind restraint!), first time he screamed for 20 mins then settled, back into cot, second, third time he took less time, perhaps 10 mins each time, fourth time, I fed him at 5:30 I shall do it again tomorrow, and then feed him at 5:40am, and so forth til we get to 6am, which is fine as I have to be up at 6:30am normally for work.

DH snored the entire way through it but said this morning he will deal with it when he wakes, but as you say pink he can smell my milk, so at the weekend we will move him back into his own room again and I will feed him til midnight and then not again til 5:30-6am or so. I realised last night, that it is Time.

Hurrah hi5's GMD you now have to be totally consistent, that's the hard bit imho. Well done, and good luck for the coming week. Would love to know how you get on if you get time.

3rd night, well, ok but not, if that makes sense? He was less desperate and crying for boob itself, but fussed and figited all night and would not settle unless in my arms/on the bed, and even on the bed he did not settle well. He did not want to be in my arms when I lay in bed, had to stand up, then he rested and dozed against my shoulder and did not fight for boob, so I guess that is progress? He slept well between 7pm-1:30am, woke once for a quick feed at 11:30pm, then fussed til 5am, when I fed him (earlier than planned but he really seemed hungry). He is sleeping more in the day not surprisingly due to the fussing and yesterday afternoon he had a lot of milk . I wonder whether I disturb him when I figit in my sleep? He is going into his own room tomorrow afternoon, when I have friday and saturday without work the next day.

DH is going to do the next couple of nights and I will sleep in spare room to get my head down a little and to help him know for sure we are serious about this.

I did feel terrible though, I just thought 'all i have to do to fix this is feed him and he will be happy' and felt mean that it was so close to him but I was denying him. I kept telling myself that we will both be happier and better rested once I stop night feeding, and it has to be done.

oh did not say the second night was horrendous , he woke at 12:30am for 1 HOUR, and screamed the place down, so angry, tears, he kept bobbing my face desperately, I was sooooooo sad for him. Then he finally collapsed at 1:30am and woke again at 4:30am the same til 5:00am when he went to sleep and did not wake til 6:30am, which means he had not had any milk from 11:30am-6:30am. Shame last night was not so good milk wise but was wrt anger/upset.

Whatever happens, this is It. I am not going back now!

Really really hard when ds can smell your milk and know it's just there, if you see what I mean. I hope when he goes into his own room and dh takes over things will improve. The thing to remember is that there is no real "quick fix" but you do have to be patient and consistent.

Yes, you will all feel completely revitalised when you get a full nights sleep... that's the goal, keep thinking of that.

Is there anyway you could not pick him up if he keeps trying to head butt you? Just put your arm in the cot and rub back or tummy until he calms down?

Well done for sticking at it so far, medals must be due soon

Poor you it sounds grim. How much sleep is he getting during the day? Do you think he is having a long enough nap? Or too much?

Reason I say this is that with my 2, it does seem that sleep begets sleep. They were more likely to sleep badly if they didn't have enough sleep during the day. Certainly up until the age of 18 months/2.

I think you need to have a plan and stick to it religiously. Don't start until a Thursday so that the weekend follows and your DH is there too and there is no pressure to be bright for work. don't plan anything for the weekend either. Wait till he's fully recovered from his cold too.

This is just a suggestion. Put him in his own room with cuddly toys etc in his cot. Do stories etc then feed him before bed, in his bedroom. Put him in his cot and tell him he's going to sleep. If he goes straight to sleep, put your feet up. If he wakes/yells/stands up say 'it's OK you're only going to sleep, sh sh' then lie him back down. Don't give him a big cuddle as such. Leave the room. Leave it for about a minute, then go in and repeat. And repeat and repeat.

I've used variations of this with my 2 and it's worked really well though both were good sleepers before.

This method is one that a nanny friend uses and she reckons that it takes 3 days or nights of consistently doing the same thing to make a change. It was she who suggested not doing it until a Thursday. When she told me there would be a significant difference by the Monday if I stuck with it and went through the 'pain' of the first night I didn't believe her but it did work.

If your DH can do it, then even better. Have you got him in a sleeping bag? Mine were in them and I'm sure it helped them sleep better as their movement is restricted to some extent. I'm also a big fan of blackout blinds.

Hope it gets better.

deux thanks for that, really helpful advice there, will be following some of that, good to re-enforce it, what you are suggesting is sort if pu/pd method isn't it? we used that with DD, it worked a treat, but tried previously with DS, not successful but think neither of us were ready then, will try it again.

His naps are a bit all over the place atm due to this weeks bad sleeping due to crying etc, being ill over christmas as well. Normally, he has just dropped his two naps down to one for the most part, he sometimes has a 20-30 min nap when DH takes DD to school in the morning, but not always, then now has a nap at around midday of around 1.5 hours, He had been napping 10am for 45 mins-1 hour then same again at around 3pm, so these have merged (often coincide with lunch so that is brought foeward while his naps adjust). However, right now, due to tiredness, night issues he is napping around 3 hours in the day, he sleeps for about 1.5 hours in the morning for the last 4 days, and again at about 2pm, although the other day he slept 4 hours!!! And today he slept 2 hours, 2 x 1 hour blocks, latest being at 3pm. Once he is settled back down I anticipate his nap being around 1pm for 1-1.5 hours.

Funny despite his lack of night sleeping atm his temperament is lovely! he wakes and stays in a fab mood til he is ready for napping/hungry!

{deep breath]

he is in his room tonight. All organised and tidy, has some toys/bears but not too many, and we have had a nice long walk on the beach/fresh air so hopefully he will sleep a bit but who knows!

Last night, he breastfed at 7:30pm, then woke at 8:45pm, settled without milk, took 10 mins, woke at 1:30am, settled without boob 10 mins or so, then again 4:30am, fed him although it was a bit earlier than planned, slept til 6am, the fed, woke at 6:30am with the other spring chicken!

Reasonable I thought!