CC - advice from people who have done it please!

[helsbells82]

My baby boy is almost 7 months old and we started controlled crying just over two weeks ago. He has never been a great sleeper but when we got to a stage where he would only go to sleep in his pram and that didn't always work we just had no choice. One night he slept for just 3 hours, 2 in his pram and one in bed with us. We were all on the verge of loosing our sanity through sleep deprivation!

He is breastfed and would never take a bottle. He is not a great fan of solids but we do try to feed him 3 times a day. He has two naps in the day, one morning and one afternoon for anything from 1-2 hours each time. He wont accept a dummy anymore.

When we started the health visitor (who has been very supportive) told us it might take up to 7 days but now im wondering if it will ever work.

I am tired of friends and family giving unhelpful and patronising advice (for example, 'are you sure he doesn't have his days and nights mixed up?'). We didn't take the decision to do cc lightly and both myself and my husband are finding it really, really hard.

I would really appreciate some advice or support from someone that had a baby as reluctant to sleep as my little man. Did CC work in the end? How long can it take?

We are desperate for this to end!

Poor you.
I did CC with my DS when he was 6 months. We had also reached rock bottom.

When you say it hasn't worked after 2 weeks can you explain what you have been doing and how long you have been leaving him?

It worked for us in 3 days, but only because I had to get someone in to help me as I wasn't able to do it with just me and DH.

The first night he cried for and hour and 15 mins. The woman just rubbed his tummy every 15 mins or so, but didn't take out him out of his cot, or pick him up. If I had been on my own I would have thought, this isn't working, and picked him up. He was sweating and incredibly upset.
Then he woke only once that night, cried for 40 mins and went back to sleep. This was a baby who had need the boob every 1-2 hrs during the night.
The 2nd night it was about 30 mins, and the 3rd night 5 mins, then on the 4th night he was delighted to be put in his cot with his bunny and light show.

It was the best thing we ever did, but it shouldn't take as long as two week so I am wondering how long you have left him to cry?

thank you mrsmarple! I dont know anyone else that has experienced a similar situation.

I didnt think it should take this long either...

We start by going in every 2 mins, just a couple of times, then increase it to every 5 mins for 20 mins, then 10 mins for half an hour and every 15 mins until he goes to sleep.

When we go in we gently rub his back and whisper we love you but its bedtime, night night. Only in the room for a few secs a time.

If its been 2-3 hours since he fed and he wakes i do get him out, offer him the breast (he usually has a really good feed), put him back and do it again. I dont want to suddenly stop feeding him as he is still not really having much in the way of solids and he did suffer with silent reflux when he was younger(if you haven't come across that its a bit like heartburn when he fed) and i think related to that he always fed better at night so dont want to suddenly break that.

I'm so glad you agree it shouldnt take this long. Do you have any ideas about what we could do next? We have the health visitor coming this week but i think she is pretty stuck too.

I'm afraid I've no help, but a quick question for you. We're hovering at the edge of sanity and have been contemplating CC if things haven't picked up in a month. DD sounds like your son - BF & wakes several times during the night for feeds. Do you think it's more difficult because you have to repeat the process several times during the night?

Yes i think so... but we do only do it until he wakes up anytime after 1am. My husband works and so we need some sleep. The health visitor said if you do it from 7 until after 1 then he should learn to go to sleep and stay asleep without any other triggers (i wish). She thought that if the first part of the night was sorted the rest would follow.

After that he does come in with us and so far he has stayed asleep apart from waking for feeds (i shove the boob in before he wakes when he is stirring). My husband is not a fan of co-sleeping so wants to stop that asap.

Before we started being next to us in bed did not always work, sometimes he woke in the night and was wide awake and we had to get him to sleep in the first place in his pram.

Its good to know i am not the only one who has experienced this. Obviously i knew there were others out there but none of my friends or family.

Sleep deprivation is the most awful thing. I have every sympathy for others out there suffering!

oh and trillian42, i have never heard of it taking this long. Typically 3-4 nights really tough, up to 7 days so i understand. Hopefully you wont have the same problem if you do decide to go down this route.

Does he go to sleep on his own during the day?

We did CC with DD when she was about 10 months. She had a similar sleep pattern to your son and I was shattered. Our HV suggested it when I burst into uncontrollable tears at clinic when she asked how sleeping was going!

I was ok with doing it because she was well established on solids, so we were pretty certain she wasn't waking with hunger.

It worked after a week, but I have heard of it taking longer. DD hasn't regressed since we did it, though she of course has her own new set of sleep problems instead! Perhaps a sleep clinic or specialist might be worthwhile if it's still not working. Your HV or GP might be able to refer you.

Good luck, I really feel for you as the tiredness is so grim.

I did this with DD1 wheh she was 7 months old.

I went in at 5 then 10 then 15 min intervals (going back to 5 whe we reached 20 mins) with no picking up, just comforting noises.

The first night was a three hour slog, the second night 20 mins and the third night nothing.

The first night was soooo hard but I stuck with it and was so glad as it really paid off.

BTW she is now 14 and doesn't seem to have suffered any long lasting ill effects from CC.

helsbells82 - I really feel for you, sleep deprivation is just the worst, especially when your friends and family don't understand. I know what it is like wandering round the streets with the pram in tears trying to get the baby to sleep!

The woman that I got in said that you have to keep it up throughout the night i.e. once he goes down at 7pm, he doesn't get out of the cot until 6.30am. She did offer him a dream feed at 11ish, but he refused that twice so she said he doesn't need feeding during the night.

On the first night when he didn't want the 11pm dream feed I thought it was because he was rejecting the bottle (he was totally breastfed) and that he was still hungry. I said, ok, will you come and get me when he wakes at 1am for a breastfeed, and she said, no, he doesn't get out of his cot til 6.30am. I thought yeah right, see you at 1am! But he slept through..

I was lucky because a great friend of mine also had to CC with her EBF baby at 6 months so we could support one another. Her baby wasn't good at taking solids and so felt that she needed to breastfeed during the night, but she also got someone in to help who said that at this age they are taking enough during the day and don't need feeding. Her baby also slept through after 3 days.

From my experience you need to maintain your CC position - if he knows that he cries and gets taken into your bed and gets all night boob then of course he will cry and cry.

Good luck. It is so hard to do but I do think you have to make a decision and stick to it. Then it will work. I couldn't have done it alone though so I understand how hard it is.

Also you really have to reach rock bottom in order to see it through.

And as BrigitBigKnickers said - there are no long lasting ill effects!!

Right....i'm going to try this with DS2 - when he;s better - has rotten flu at the minute!

Do you not find they get even more wound up if you go in and rub their backs oir tummy? Does it not make them more crazy? Or is that just what you have to put up with. 'm going to have to tie my hands behind my back to resist picking him up

marymotherofcheeses - in the day he only goes to sleep in his pram. I either take him for a walk or rock him in the hall. I cant remember the last time he fell asleep feeding .

naomilpeb - thank you. I will speak to the HV about a sleep clinic/specialist if she doesnt have any other suggestions. Although i suspect she might say what mrsmarple is saying about doing it all night and refusing to feed him. How am i going to stop myself?! :(

mrsmarple - who did you get in? How did you find them and how expensive were they? I think that would be a huge help though i dont know what my husband would say.

BrigitBigKnickers - so glad you say there are no long-lasting effects i panic about this every night! There are a lot of people who strongly disagree with it and they make me feel terrible but i just didnt know what else to do.

littlemissindecisive - i did hear from a friend of a friend that it wound their baby up. My little boy seems soothed by it but they are all so different. We bought a video monitor off ebay before we started and i find this helpful. Sometimes it goes quiet but we can watch him trying to crawl around his cot. If he is calm we dont go it. It bloody hard but is supposed to work. To be honest i hardly do it as i get so upset my husband gets left to do it. You do have to be very strong Good luck.

Where are you based? They are a company called night nannies. Google them. You had to pay an agency fee and then it was £100 per night. It was, without doubt, the best money ever spent. I used the rationale that we hadn't had any sort of holiday etc etc etc. But you could just use them for the first night as that is the worst. If you book them you have to explain you need a sleep trainer, not just a night nanny to change him/feed him.
I looked up sleep clinics etc, and I was shocked at their price compared with actually having someone in the room. The problem with books/sleep clinics is that we all know what we need to know but I just wasn't capable of leaving him myself. I couldn't have done controlled crying without having a professional there because I thought that my DS was starving hungry and I would have given him the boob and gone right back to square one again. Like you I find it just as upsetting as he did, in fact probably more so.
But obviously people do it all the time without getting help - you just need to grit your teeth.
It is really hard.

I tried it with dd at 8 mths, she was still waking up for milk in the night. I struggled to get her to go to bed as well.

I found it really difficult. I spent a lot of time crying on the other side of the door. But it did work. It took about 2 weeks.

She is now 11 and to be honest she still fights sleep even now.

For me, that's the problem. If he doesn't fall asleep on his own during the day, and isn't used to sleeping in his cot, how's he going to do it at night?

I'd focus on getting the day times sorted into a routine, where you put him down at the same time, awake, fed, comfy, then let him settle himself. It is limiting but when you start the night time CC, it will be much much easier and he'll have more of a clue of what's expected of him.

As someone who has suffered from sleep deprevation- in know how you feel- But I also know that the key to this prolonged CC is to stop night feeds.This is absolutly the reason why it is taking so long. I know you are reluctant to do this, but there is no reason for a 7 month old to need a night feed other than from habit. The Reflux ( my daughter had it severly)shouldn't really mean he needs to feed at night. Ceasing the night feeds will probably have the knock-on effect of him increasing his day appetite ( but don't expect an immediate differnce) Follow the advice from miss marple. I worked for Night Nannies for years and have sleep trained hundreds of babies- (including my own tribe) There are very few babies-who didn't respond to absolute consistent CC at the age of 7 months. Try not to concern yourself about him not getting enough food - it will take time for him to re-adjust his feeds- but you need to ensure ALL feeding is done between the hours of 7am and 7pm. Also if you are going to do it properly, he shouldn't be comming to your bed halfway through the night. And also, get him out of the habit of being rocked-pushed soothed to sleep in the day. As Mary Cheese says, get him to nap in his cot in the day without being rocked/fed/soothed to sleep. Pop him in the cot and follow all CC steps, as if it were a night. Good Luck

helsbells82 - I suspect that we need to tackle the feeding every 1-2 hours during the night first. If I could get DD down to feeding every 4 hours at night I'd be so happy! Co-sleeping for us means my husband has to sleep in the other room and we're both fed up of that.

We're going to try to reduce the feeds over the Christmas while we have family around who can mind DD while we nap during the day!!

Good luck!

I think Mary may have a point that it would be a good idea to have a go at sorting daytime sleeps first. We did that with DD, so that by the time we did night time CC she was having a regular 2 hour nap after lunch in her cot, going to sleep by herself. It was far easier to sort than the night time sleeping, maybe because she wasn't as tired.

Also thought I should mention that we did CC in two stages: first we tackled her going to sleep at bedtime - that was the hardest as she was used to feeding to sleep. As well as the CC we changed her routine to milk then story then sleeping bag, and DP putting her down rather than me. We then did the night time CC once she'd been getting herself off to sleep for a few weeks. Hope that helps.

thank you everyone.

mrsmarple i have looked at night nannies and they dont cover my area (staffordshire) but it is something we will look into.

I think you have all given me the answers i needed. I have to stop the night feeding and stick to cc through the night... AND tackle naps. God the thought of it is exhausting and scary but i know you are all right.

containher - should it literally be one night - stop feeding him? Also, what would you recommend for naps in the day for a baby this age? If i put him down for a nap and he wakes after half an hour do i get him out and leave it at that?

Thank you everyone for all your comments you have all been really helpful.

Trillian42 - good luck and let me know how you get on!

Well, for daytime naps, personally I'd be aiming for a 45 minute nap about 2 hours after he gets up. So if he's up at 7, then a nap at 9, and up just before 10. Then lunch later (more to do with the routine rather than quantity he eats) and then down again after that. With a bit of practice, you'll get a couple of hours out of him at lunchtime!

When my boy was that age, he'd have another half hour at about 4.30ish then down for the evening by 7.30ish.

The key for me was getting him to lie down, awake, and content. He would cry for 10 minutes, during which time I would go in, say, every two or three minutes to reassure and then he'd go to sleep. As I say it would take about 10 minutes of grizzling rather than out and out crying, before he was asleep. And then he would sleep so well and wake up so happy.

If he woke up early at the longer lunchtime nap, I'd pat him back to sleep and usually it worked.

When we got the daytime sorted and I was confident with it, I started on the nightime. First I reduced his feed (he was on a bottle at that stage) so I was confident it wasn't hunger, then I did CC, which took two nights then he slep through. I have to say, he's been a very good sleeper ever since.

HTH.

We did it (at exactly the same age as you) - i have heard it can take a while (we were lucky as it was done within a week sort of) - I am with Containher though I think you need to stop night feeding- i was feeding constantly through the night (hrly/1/2 hrly) - i kept thinking once he goes down to once every 3-4 hrs it'll be alright but it didn't seem to happen. So we basically decided that once he went to bed (9.30pm) he wasn'y going to be fed til morning (after 6am- snow changed to after 5am!)

I think you have to be convinced yourself that it isn't hunger making him wake but habit- Otherwise you can't do it. I basically fed DS as much as I could during the day and he had three solid meals as well so that I knew he was fine.
I went to an nhs sleep clinic as well - it wasn't what I thought it would be (expert with some magic solutions)- but was just a healthvisitor who I had been speaking to anyway - she said that the age he was at (6 1/2 months) was the youngest she would do it (almost too young) but as we were desperate (i was about to go back to work) and DS was obviously healthy (eg fat!) she would recommend it.

On another note rather than get an expert it I have friends who had their mothers/friends saty to help get through the period.

Helsbels. There are two ways to tackle these issues- either the gentle approach ( which I think ends up prolonging the agony for both you and baby ) or the no nonsense approach. I know some people think this to be unkind- but I am of the view of cruel to be kind all the way. I think it's worse for a child to have parents who are sleep deprived, and resentful and over emotional, and also for a child to not be given the gift of self reliance. If I were you- I would wait until after x mas, and all the chaos that ensues- wait until you feel ready to have some VERY unbroken nights sleep. Then i would pick a day, to stuff the baby up during the day, offer more feeds and more quantity. Then, get daddy, for the first 3-4 nights to offer a bottle ( he is more likley to be taking in the comfort of the breast than taking in a huge amount of milk)gradually reducing the amount to a measly ounce by night 4. Does he usually take anything from the bottle at all?
If he refuses to take anything, you could try to feeding him for a much shorter period of time reducing the time at the breast so that on night 4 he on there for 2 minutes, then get daddy to settle him. I would resort to comforting him on these first 3-4 nights any other way than feeding. You need to get his tummy to adapt to not being fed at this time- the lack of feeds at night will have a knock on effect in the day- resulting in him taking more to feed in the day, and you then having peace of mind that he has enough food in him and so less likley to 'break' under the pressure of crying. When you have tackled the night feeding and by night 5 are not feeding him anything, then you can be certain that his night waking is not from hunger- but driven entirely by habit, and not having the right sleep associations. Whilst you are increasing his day time feeds- you also need to start getting him used to being in his cot. In the day, at none nap time, pop him in his cot, sitting up and have several short play sessions with him throughout the day-play peekaboo etc with him and pop in and out of the room, so that he is familiar with his room and his cot - you want him to associate bed with happiness- so get him used to being in it at Non sleep times, so he can have happy associations with it. When you are no longer feeding him at night - certainly by the end of a week, of gradual withdrawl, then it's time to do CC. This should be done at nap times and at night times. Make sure you give yourself a week of being at home, at those nap times, until a good pattern is established- then you can start letting him sleep in the pushchair/at friends houses etc so that you aren't under house arrest- the key is, to get to the point where it doesn't matter where he is, at nap times- his body clock will kick in, and he will be able sleep unaided whereever you are.
A good routine for a 9 months old would be
7 am wake/ breakfast
9-10 nap (in cot, pop in bed and leave- hour max- but can be 10 mins- if not a sleepy baby)
12 lunch
1-3pm sleep ( if he wakes after 30 mins, go in and lie him back down, then leave and continue CC until 3pm-At 3pm- get him up - if it ends up that he has only had half an hour, then a quick cat nap of 10 mins at 4pm can be given- but wake him up after 10 mins so he is tired enough at night)
5pm dinner
630. pm last breast feed
7pm, bed awake and not having fed to sleep.
The key to this is absolute consitency. In all my years of Night nannying/maternity nursing/sleep consultancy and being a mummy, I have only had 4 babies who took longer than 8 days to show a real improvement.

helsbels

I have done cc with my 2 older kids and will do with my 3rd ( but she may not need it as I have taught her to sleep by herself and is far better than the other two)

I am sure you are aware that you haven't really done cc which is why it hasn't worked. It needs absolute consistency, no feeding and no bringing into bed.

My dd2 was only 6 mths when I did it. I was going back to work, co sleeping and she was feeding 5 + times a night. She had virtually no milk in the day as she refused the bottle but had solids ok. I was initally nervous about going cold turket with the night feeds so I decided on a 3am feed but only once in the night. This was quickly dropped after a week or two when I realised it was habit and not for hunger. The dramatic change took only 3 days and it totally changed my life and allowed me to do an incredibly stressful job.

I agree with above poster - about getting christmas over with but it's also a good time to do it when your partner is off work as he will get very little sleep and you need his help.

This site will help you and is less expensive than a private night nanny. If you do it yourself, you will be able to do it for other kids as well.

www.babysleepanswers.co.uk

good luck x