My baby sleeps eight hours - until 4/5am...

[Bossykate]

During his first six weeks my now seven week old son was sleeping from 7/8pm until 4/5am. For the past week we have been waking him for a feed between 10 and 11pm in the hope that he will sleep 8 hours from that point. However, he is still waking between 4 and 5. Could we/should we do anything more to encourage him to drop the 4/5am feed at this stage and if so how? Alternatively, should we stop waking him at 10pm? I wake him for a feed at 7am regardless of what time he woke in the night. I would be very grateful for any help and advice you could give on this issue.

Thanks in advance.

I an not particularly pro or anti controlled crying. We have never followed a proper cc programme, with sleep charts etc. However on the odd night or two, if I feel my son is getting into a bad sleep habit, and after checking that he is not in pain or thirsty, (often giving him a cuddle in our bed as well for good luck!) I may then firmly say 'night night' put him back in his cot and leave him, even if he breaks into a sob. I'll check up on him, but, he will almost inevitably fall asleep after 10 minutes.

I suppose some parents could see cc as the best and primary way of prevent bad sleep pattens emerging, while others, like me, use it in the vaguest sense, and see it as the last resort.

Of course, IMO, SO MUCH depends on your child's sleep pattens. I thank my lucky stars when I read some of the postings here.

Also, doesn't your approach to cc and sleeping through depend on your own sleep pattens? I've never used much cc because I can usually drift off to sleep in 2 minutes flat, even when woken up repeatedly in the middle of the night. If I had my husband's sleep pattens - once he wakes up, he's often awake and stressed for hours - I would have had to utilse every means available from the word go to guarantee I my son slept through.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Pupuce! I don't think it is necessarily the 'ideal situation' to have a child who sleeps in its own bed. I know of people who have bought massive beds and share it with all their children. After all, according to Christina Hardyment's book, Perfect Parents, the family bed was the norm until the 18th century.

As you point out, there are likely to be threads about 'How do I....?' but we need to look at why these 'problems' are being posed. Maybe it is the way the issue is viewed that is the problem, not the issue itself. A baby not sleeping in its cot is a problem to the parent, not the baby. If society regarded babies sleeping with parents as normal as babies sleeping in cots, then the question wouldn't arise in the first place.

Tigermoth - what a clever thought! Never considered that before, but yes, I'm one that falls back to sleep easily and it does influence how you deal with things. I could roll out of bed, plug in baby and drift gently back again, peacefully asleep yet always aware of where she was. But I had to put baby on the side away from dh because he was either AWAKE (and fed up!) or ASLEEP - in which case he didn't know she was there. (I had cot by bed so she was safely lodged.) He would wake in the morning and never know how many feeds there'd been etc. I thought it was a male thing but it's probably equally a sleep pattern thing. I'm also a nap-anywhere person (in car, while feeding, you name it) so that makes a difference to what I plan. Gosh, don't you get new ideas all the time on this site!

Suedonim you missunderstood me... a baby needs to learn to settle on his own in bed... his bed or his parents' bed... it doesn't matter. The point I am trying to make is that a child should be happy to go to bed and not have very big difficulty learning to sleep without comfort. I do not say this because I don't want to comfort my child, as it happens I sing and cuddle for at least 15 minutes to DS every night when he goes to bed but then he says "bye bye mummy".... happy to go to sleep and I am happy (no shame in admitting that) that he is going to sleep without a fuss and will sleep through the night.
I have no negative views at all of parents who share their beds with their children. It's their business.

Whatever way you get your child to sleep it will have it's negative aspects. I don't think there are bad/good habits - whatever causes the least distress to all concerned is the best method. I do think that if a child can't speak it is difficult to interpret his cries. However most kids do learn to sleep on their own even if you appear to indulge them early on. I always comforted my child every time with a breastfeed in the night. I worried that he'd never learn to fall back asleep without this (visions of a huge 5 year old being latched on). However just as it was getting rather uncomfortable (aged 2) he will now sleep through with just a cuddle in the night instead (with 'feeds' last thing and first thing). I've always tended to err on the side of caution assuming he needs the comfort - sometimes he has a cold coming on and isn't feeling well and I've maybe tried to leave him to sleep on his own but given up after 10 mins. The next day when the sniffles start I realise that there was something genuinely wrong. That's not to say that he just gets comfort when he perhaps doesn't 'need' it too but so what? I don't know what the answer is if a baby doesn't settle with you - times when my boy wouldn't settle I often found switching all the lights off so there was total darkness and he soon got the message.

Oh, sorry, Pupuce, I got the wrong end of the stick! It doesn't make much difference to my thoughts, though. We just had our youngest with us all the time and she would go to sleep around the time we went to bed and then sleep on the morning. We didn't do formal bedtimes until she was older and we knew after my two week spell away from her that she was ready to do it happily. I have older children who are around all evening anyway, so any concept of 'me time' in the evening disappeared years ago, in this house!

Pupuce- I'm sorry you resented what I wrote. I honestly wasn't judging people who use Gina Ford's methods and find they work. I was just trying to articulate some of the possible drawbacks of her approach and used a bit of a ranting style because I like to write like that sometimes. I don't think that parents who follow GF routines can't take the pressure. I think all parents benefit from support and advice whether it's from a book they like or from trusted relatives and friends. I can't apologise for disagreeing with GF's approach but I was trying to give my opinion on the books, not the people who use them.
I like to debate and give my opinion but at the end of the day the important thing is that we all love our babies and translate that love into good-enough care that suits our family set-up. I have not come across ANYONE on Mumsnet for whom this seems to be a problem, though the opinions on all sorts of subjects are diverse and conflicting.

Thanks for all your comments.
Pupuce I did indeed read the thread you started on GF with child number two and it made perfect sense. Thank you.
This is a very interesting debate. I have now read both books, but as baby #3 is more than three months away have not yet tried the methods!
Will post again in a year....

I've recently been reading GF's book. One thing that strikes me is that with the emphasis on regulated feeding and expressing it is very breastfeeding unfriendly. She obviously has no idea of the physiology of breastfeeding. Although I've no doubt some mums can follow her routines I would have had to give up bf within weeks due to lack of milk.

Suedonim.... that's rubbish !
I have breastfed both children, DS until 8 months and DD still breastfed. Both on GF routines.
Both my SIL breastfed very succesfully and both used GF. I actually do not know of anyone following GF routine and having such a problem... I am sure we'll find someone on Mumsnet.
GF routines start at 2 weeks old so if you didn't have problem breastfeeding when the baby was born, you shouldn't have problem then.

I breastfed my daughter very successfully for 7 months. We used the GF routine from 4 weeks. Suedonim - what exactly is the physiology of breastfeeding? Surely its just that you feed, then your body makes milk??? Sorry if I sound naive...also GF does have a very efficient(!) sounding plan to boost a flagging milk supply which I can totally believe works. It just doesnt sound as cosy as going to bed with the baby for 2 days and feeding on demand!

Saying that you and your SIL's used GF and successfully bf is hardly scientific, Pupuce. It's like saying that Granny smoked 60 fags a day and still lived to be 100! Your comment "if you didn't have problem breastfeeding when the baby was born, you shouldn't have problem then." is quite correct, no doubt. Trouble is, lots of people do have problems when they first begin bfing. They are the ones who can end up having to give up bf, maybe months before they had intended to. I know of people who run postnatal grous and one of the causes of upset for new mums is finding their babies do not conform to the GF ideals they read about when pregnant. My point again, is that it is unfair to lead parents to believe that GF is a panacea for all ills. Yes, indeed it works for some people, but it won't work for many others.

Here's some information that scheduled feeding will damage some people's chances of breast feeding. Two weeks is not enough time for many mothers to establish bfing - 6 weeks is more the norm.

"Each mother has a different capacity for making breastmilk. Nearly every mother (98%) makes exactly what her baby needs over a 24 hour period, but each mothers capacity for making milk at each feed is different. An example would be one mother may make x ounces at each feed, as that is what her breasts dictate due to the number of ducts she has. Another mother may make more at each sitting, because she has more ducts than the first mum. Both mothers will make enough milk, but the first mum may have to feed every two or three hours, and the second mother may feed every 3 to 4. And each baby is different. Some babies milk the ducts far more effectively than others. So if you get a combination of a baby who feeds super effectively and a mother
who has a lot of ducts, then the feeds may last 5 minutes every 4 to 5 hours. But worst case scenario would be a mother who has fewer milk ducts, and a baby who does not feed as effectively, and so she will be feeding say every two hours and each feed may be 20 minutes or longer. Of course over time the breasts make
more milk at each feed as this is what the baby is demanding and the feeds naturally space out as the baby gets bigger, can digest more at each feed, and milks the ducts more effectively.

If you are feeding on demand you won't even need to know all this, as the baby will feed for as long as he needs to, and as often as he needs to in order to grow well. But if you follow GF you are only feeding every three hours for a set amount of time, and so your baby may go hungry, or you may be worrying that your baby isn't feeding for long enough. Frequent feeds in the first 6 to 12 weeks ensures a good supply for longer term breastfeeding after the breasts have started to return to a more normal size at around the 3 month mark. Not too much of a problem if you are returning to work and intend to mixed feed, but if you want to feed very long term then there may be a problem there if you follow schedules.

All this has been studied by Dr Hartmann and if anyone is remotely interested an article on this can be found at www.fix.net/~rprewett/evidence.html.

References for his work are to be found at the end of the article.

If a mother was to follow the schedules as laid
down by GF, and she was a mother with a smaller breast capacity, and had a baby who was not particularly effective in taking milk off in the first few months, then this could be dodgy for her baby's health. Of course if you are a woman with a large breast capacity with a baby who was super effective suckler, then you won't have a problem but the chances are that your baby would be going 3 or 4 or 5 hours between feeds anyway, making the scheduling meaningless."

Enid, I'd rather spend 24 hours building up my milk supply than GF's 6 days. GF's method of building up the supplies also assumes that the mother can express milk (I never managed to express more than a teaspoon in all my years feeding four babies!) and can afford the paraphenalia for expressing, such as a pump, bottles and sterilising equipment.

I'm not saying GF doesn't work. It works for some mums. It will be a disappointment to others.

As you say Suedonim, it is a matter of preference. I did follow GF, but I also had tons of support from my midwife and the maternity hospital who ran a 'breastfeeding workshop' for mums-to-be which was absolutely brilliant. Also I had a lovely mum who breastfed four babies and was always on hand with advice (!). I do think that all that support probably contributed more to our success than GF. Just to mention that I never dared tell my mum I was following GF - she would have absolutely HATED it!!

It would be interesting to hear from people who have had problems breastfeeding on the GF routine. I know some people who found the whole idea of feeding for 45 mins/1 hour worrying as their babies were much quicker feeders and they were left worrying that their babies hadn't had enough.

I think you hit the nail on the head talking about support, Enid. From what I understand about bf, support is crucial. Interesting comment about your mum and GF, lol!

I had my first babies back in the 70's, when the breastfeeding advice was to feed every four hours. By day 9 my poor baby was starving and in despair we gave him formula. He took about 12 ounces that feed and my milk dwindled to nothing by the time he was three weeks. By the time my second son arrived the Stanways had published their book "Breast is Best". It revolutionised my knowledge about bf and I secretly followed their advice, which was for baby-led feeding, no clock watching etc. The midwives would have been horrified to know what I was doing, poring over the book morning, noon and night! But I successfully fed him for over a year.

I find it ironic that scheduled feeding was the norm in the 70's, while baby-led feeding was frowned upon, the opposite became accepted in the 80's and now we are going full circle back to the 70's again!

I had problems with breastfeeding whilst following the GF routine. Yes it was worrying to me that my ds only fed for 10-15 minutes at a time. Was he getting enough milk or wasn't he was always on my mind. Especially when at his 10/52 weigh in he hadn't put on very much weight at all, 4oz in 2weeks if I remember rightly. He was grizzly every evening from 5.30ish onwards, wanting food but yet not really sucking for more than 30 seconds. My breasts were definitely empty by this stage of the day and didn't fill up again until about 10pm and then only if I fed him a bottle of formula. Tried the GF programme of increasing supply but it never really worked for me. Managed to combine breast and bottle for a while but felt constantly paranoid about how much he was really getting, so ended up expressing all my milk and giving it to him from a bottle. He always seemed happier with this as he could still look around him and see what was going on, rather than being clamped to my chest!! Nosey thing that he is!! Hope number 2 will be easier. I'm hoping that I'll be a little more laid back this time and not worry about it quite so much I remember reading something months later that breast fed babies often dip in weight around 10-12 weeks, as true milk supply takes a while to establish. If only someone had told me that at the time.

I've followed this thread with interest because I was a total GF cynic after reading a friend's copy of her first book - to me she sounded like an army major which is the sort of thing which sends me back to teenage rebellion mode.
However, I had a baby who would not sleep during the day and was tired and screamed for most of the day. I didn't realise that this was the problem because all my books said that little babies sleep when they are tired and can't keep themselves awake so in desparation tried GF's sleeping patterns (approximately). Within a week I had a much happier baby who would nap - as long as I put her down before she showed signs of tiredness, by then it would be too late.
However, our breastfeeding routine was a non GF pattern, during the day she would feed forever (often every 45 mins for 45 mins) and from 8pm until 10.30pm but would then sleep until 6am (at 3 weeks). I was totally freaked because my non GF books talked about feeds taking about 20 mins and I seemed to be permanently feeding so therefore felt I must be doing something wrong. Eventually dh convinced me that dd was gaining weight, was relatively happy and slept through the night so must be OK as she'd wake if she was hungry. Eventually I relaxed about it and I carried on feeding for a year.
This ramble is meant to say that 'methods' don't necessarily work 100% for every baby so if you find yours does need a 'routine' in some areas be prepared to adapt things to suit you and yours and don't beat yourself up about it

DS gained 8 oz every week and at 12 weeks gained ZERO ounces for 2 weeks. the health visitor told me this was normal.
DS took 40 minutes to breastfeed, DD takes 7 ! Very big difference. I know of a lot of mothers (including me) who do worry quite a bit about their milk supply and whether the baby has had enough. This isn't typical of GF's book.
Why is it that non GF mum feel the need to bash on mothers who have followed the routine. Someone (I think it was Bloss) raised that question a few months ago. I remember saying I felt quite confident about my choices and looking at my kids, knew that I had made the right choices for them.
I do not throw the book into people's face as a gospel ! If a friend tells me of a problem, I will often suggest that she tries some of GF's recommendation - she I will share but not give the book (ubless asked of course). I would not critise their choices.
I do feel like a lot of mums out there can't help themselves and believe that because they did it without GF's book, well the ones that needed the book must be insecure, dumb, not thinking for themselves.... what ever you can think of !

No one's bashing anyone, as far as I can see. This is a healthy debate about one of child rearing's more controversial aspects. It's only right and fair for parents to know there are drawbacks to GF as well as the advantages she claims.

I don't know anything about GF and would probably not read it as I don't like these kind of books. I think trying to follow any kind of routine in the first 8 weeks is madness. Suedonim (like the name by the way, very clever!) - I had a lot of probs b/f and it took me 6 weeks to get it established. My baby used to feed hourly during the day and every 3-4 hours at night. I don't see how anyone can prescribe the 'correct' time interval when babies vary so much in weight, size and ability to feed.

Sorry if this is going off the track (as I say I've not read GF) just a general comment about routines. Some babies of course will thrive on them. My friend's baby fed every 4 hours practically on the dot from birth but that was just the baby rather than the 'routine' he had. Indeed my friend found it rather annoying and predictable!

Pupuce

Don't have anything to add to the GF debate that hasn't already been said (many times), but just wanted to thank you for articulating the pro GF side of the debate so well. I have enjoyed your contributions on this subject and have found them well argued and persuasive.

Just a little support from someone who has definitely felt "bashed" in the past by other mums who do not choose this style of parenting.

Thanks.

Remember I have NOT tried GF routines so am neither pro nor anti. I had never heard of her till last week! However reading all the GF stuff on mumsnet it seems there is indeed a lot of GF "bashing" going on, and mainly from parents who have never tried her methods!This strikes me as odd.
I bf my first two on demand. It was a disaster. Won't bore you with the details. My mum was a midwife who of course advised me to try a more scheduled approach. However I kept on with demand feeding ( I had my copy of Breast is Best by the bedside!)and after 6 weeks was like a worn out rag with a worn out screeching baby. This happened both times. I had the most wonderful support from community midwives, baby was latching on correctly etc. but it was still a disaster. This time I will most definately take GF' s suggested method because quite simply demand feding just about killed me! It did not work for me.( and the babies!). The important part of that sentence is " for me". If demand feeding works for you , that is great, I would never extrapolate from my own experiences . We are all different.So why bash those who do it the GF way? Maybe GF won't work for me next time either, but it has got to be worth a try. Perhaps I am just a useless breastfeeder!
Anyway, I came in here to do some paperwork....is there a helpline for mums addicted to mumsnet chatboards?

I wouldnt follow a routine I like to go with the flow. But as I have said on another GF thread my son does follow a routine of sorts and is pretty similar to that laid down in the GF books, but he has fallen into this himself. This didnt happen straight away and I have spent many an hour cuddling him so he will get a sleep.
As I have said before, it seems to me that GF has just watched babies and the rountine most babies fall into and made loads of money with books outlining what seems to me a natural routine as babies get older. All she has done is helped parents enforce this rountine earlier and perhaps help those babies that are unable or dont really want to recognise the signs of tiredness.

I knew to this site... what arguments !

I know of GF because my sister used her routines with her 3 kids and she swears by it (her kids are really good I have to admit that!). I chose not to follow it because my baby was so easy but I have borrowed my sister's book when my daughter still didn't sleep through the night at 6 months old. I thought GF's explanations made a lot of sense and while I didn't follow her routine, I used her advice and within 3 days she was sleeping through the night - it may have been a coincidence.
I agree with Joe1, a lot of parents do not recognise the sign of tiredness and leave it too late to put their baby to bed.
I think GF is good for parents who like to lead an organised life, as my sister does. She is a very confident person, she likes things to run smoothly and I have to admire her sometimes because her 3 kids are very close together in age and are very very easy. They are all in bed by 7PM, they get up at 7h30 (later at WE!)... they feed well. I alse read Suedonim's point about breastfeeding. I don't have an opinion but my sister breastfed all hers until they chose to stop (usually because she became pregnant) but all for over a year.

Thanks Bossykate.... and others !
Let's get on raising our kids the best way we can, we can get help in which ever form we want... that can be our Mum, Mumsnet or books !