My baby sleeps eight hours - until 4/5am...

[Bossykate]

During his first six weeks my now seven week old son was sleeping from 7/8pm until 4/5am. For the past week we have been waking him for a feed between 10 and 11pm in the hope that he will sleep 8 hours from that point. However, he is still waking between 4 and 5. Could we/should we do anything more to encourage him to drop the 4/5am feed at this stage and if so how? Alternatively, should we stop waking him at 10pm? I wake him for a feed at 7am regardless of what time he woke in the night. I would be very grateful for any help and advice you could give on this issue.

Thanks in advance.

Well, I have mixed views on controlled crying. My daughter was an absolute dream at bedtime when she was in a cot - down at 7.00 with a bottle of milk. I could walk out of the room and she would talk to herself and then go to sleep for 12 hours or so.

However, when she moved to a bed it was a nightmare. She got up. She would come downstairs. I tried ignoring her - very difficult when you've made your dinner and she comes and nestles up to you whilst you are eating it. I would hold her hand until she slept - but I could often be holding it every night for at least 2 hours, usually before I had eaten a meal.

In the end I tried controlled crying. It's horrible but it did seem to break the cycle a bit. But then she started waking in the night and coming into my bed. I initially tried to return her to bed but, after about 5 attempts each night, I'd be so worn out, I gave in. Also, I think I felt so guilty about the earlier crying I felt I "owed" it to her.

I was so desperate for a solution I went to the sleep clinic who, essentially, said as a mother you can't win - whatever you do will make you feel guilty. But don't beat yourself up about contolled crying.

Now, 2 1/2 years later, I still have to hold my daughter's hand most nights until she has fallen asleep - occasionally she "allows" me to go downstairs earlier. However, she usually drops off within 5 - 10 minutes. And, she does go to sleep at a reasonable hour and rarely wakes in the night.

I'm not sure what my point is but I think you have to try options that work for you and your child. Eventually, it seems to come right, somehow. But, in desperation, you'll try anything.

I know "controlling" your child is not necessarily desirable but I have friends who's 6 year old still won't fall asleep in her own bed, only on the settee. Then has to be carried upstairs to bed and is usually still awake at about 9-10 each evening. This kind of situation may suit some parents but it would break me. They are expecting a second child - they don't intend to let the same situation arise.

Bossykate- We started out with our twins in bed with us. The boys seemed very content and woke only for breast feeds. At six weeks or so the bed seemed a bit small for four and we put them in carry cots next to the bed so they were still nearby and accessible for night feeds. Again they appeared content, though some nights were difficult- hence the walking and singing and other shennanigans. They slept through from about 12 weeks. We then had a blip at about six or seven months (they'd graduated to cots in our room by this time) when they suddenly seemed much more aware of our presence in the room and woke up when we went to bed, eager to socialise. This was a difficult time as we were in a one bedroom flat and my partner and I ended up sleeping in the sitting room, which mostly seemed to solve the problem. All was hunky dory- mostly they slept through, occasionally they didn't and we comforted them through that- until we were forced to move them into beds prematurely (we'd been using travel cots because buying cots for twins was so expensive and we were a bit skint but by age 2 they were able to rock and batter them v dangerously!) and the fat hit the sleeping fan. They hopped in and out of bed at a rate of knots laughing, chatting, playing together and generally having a whale of a time at the expense of their parent's sanity! They seemed to egg each other on to ever greater heights of appallingness. That's when we turned on the firmness a bit more and now they're mostly happy to go to bed, though as I said earlier one of them is occasionally a bit sad when the time comes to wind down for the night.
So, to answer your question, no, there weren't bad habits to be broken though we've had to make some adjustments along the way. I feel that the boys benefited a lot from that early close physical contact with me and their dad. I certainly benefited and remember it as a magical and precious, though tiring, time of my life.
I know we've been relatively lucky with their sleep though, and I'm not for one minute critisizing people who choose to use CC with an older baby because they're desperate for sleep. If it works that's good news for everyone. Parents have needs and sleep is a strong need. With a young baby though, I think that it is preferable to use other methods. I believe that a tiny baby cries to express her needs, which can be many and varied and are felt passionately. Only by our responses will that baby feel valued and heard and get the message that she is worthy of being listened to and having her needs met as far as possible. Later, her need for food at night and her range of communication methods will change and thinking about her night time sleep patterns and whether these need to adapt becomes possible. Meanwhile, IMO, she deserves the best response shattered parents can provide- even at 3.30am.

Bossykate, I think my answer really is very similar to Scummymummy's. Our DD has been an awful sleeper right from the word go. She was even chucked out of the nursery in hospital for not sleeping! She had a huge need to suckle and having her in bed with us was the only way to get her to sleep and get some sleep myself at night. It isn't what I would have chosen (that would be a baby that slept 22 hours a day and gurgled happily the rest of the time, LOL!)but it was the best solution for us. I didn't regard it as a bad habit, it was just part of life.

She began to get herself off to sleep when she discoverd her thumb - at 18 months of age, when other babies are giving theirs up!!! The transfer to her own bed came at about two and a half, when I went without her to India to visit my son for two weeks. She accepted that other people were caring for her and woke up my DH just once in that time. We have had good and bad patches since then but now she is fine at bedtime. She still needs relatively little sleep, even though she is at school fulltime. I can count on the fingers of one hand the nights she has slept for more than 11 or 12 hours over the years yet she is always full of energy and an incredibly happy child.

She has three siblings but the other three were all good sleepers, in general. I don't think we did anything different with her, which makes me think it is temperament that guides sleeping habits. My others would probably have reacted favourably to controlled crying, yet she didn't, which is why I think that CC doesn't work for everyone.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Scummymummy and Suedonim. Food for thought!

sorry, tinker. thanks to you as well.

Bossykate, just to pick up on your point of it setting them 'bad' sleep habits. I know this has been discussed on another thread a while ago, but it annoys me when people use those words 'bad' when it comes to co-sleeping, it is the most natural thing in the world after all. I have had a similar experience to Scummy (minus one child!) and have found that dd will still come in bed with me now in the mornings (shes 2) and you know what? I like it and so does she! I think its lovely to have a cuddle before we get up.BTW she has settled herself to sleep in her cot since she was 9 months. I know everyone may not want to co-sleep, that's fine but having your baby in bed with you can never be classed as 'bad'.

Suedomin - LOL at being thrown out of hospital nusery - so was dd, oh the shame!!

That's why that word was in inverted commas If co sleeping works for you, great.

I've never used CC. My routine is to put my son (28 months) to sleep in his cot. I sit with him till he falls asleep which is usually fairly quickly. He then sleeps approx 2 hours and wakes (usually about 11.30 which coincides roughly with my bedtime) then he comes into bed with me. If I go to bed earlier I'll go in with my husband (in a separate bed) or just sit with him. Then me and our son sleep together. I know this is frowned upon by some but it actually seems to work and I don't have the hassle of settling him and sitting up myself with no sleep. I've read that co-sleeping children will want their own bed eventually although usually not before the age of 3. People used to sleep with their kids in 'olden days' much more often because it was easier and they often only had one bed and it meant you could keep each other warm.

Lizzer - I've just read your post and see you share my sentiments. As you say co-sleeping is not intrinsically bad - sometiems it can be difficult if the child is fidgeting/wanting to breastfeed or you just want to be alone however on balance I feel it has more positive aspects. It just feels right cuddling your child in the night. Perhaps in our society we equate beds with partners/spouse only and sex ... like you've got the energy anyway lol!

I am sure I am going to attract some upset mums here but when Suedonim says :

There are plenty of other ways to get a baby off to sleep, such as bed-sharing, rocking, feeding, a dummy, playing soothing music, or good old pacing the floor

I'd say that rocking, dummies (and to a certain extent feeding)... are exactly why we have plenty of other posts saying... my baby can't sleep because his dummy fell out, my baby can't sleep if I don't rock him to sleep, etc... this is how you start bad habits. Doing it once or twice is fine but getting into such a habit and we get other mums starting threads on how to cure them... cc maybe !?!!?!?!!?!?!?

P.S. I do not have an opinion on bed sharing.

Ds usually goes off to sleep with a quick feed, sometimes he doesnt want one anymore. He then goes in his cot and normally wakes up sometime around 2am - 4am which he then comes in with us. Sometimes he comes in with us and doesnt go in his cot at all. It gives us all a good nights sleep, although with dh and ds fidgeting together I sometimes have a restless sleep, and some very much needed closeness for dh and ds (dh works long hours and they miss each other loads). Having ds sleep with us has also meant that if we go on holiday or sleep away he has no problem sleeping as he is with us. Ds has slept with us almost from day one and Im sure when no2 comes along we will have to buy a bigger bed for the 4 of us. I love the closeness.

I looked at this for the first time today and was fascinated by the debate. Suedonim, thanks for making the point about cc not being for everyone. I think you're right in the sense of failure it can leave behind and it's not for every parent or child. I tried it in desperation with one child and it didn't work anyway. I'm also with you, Scummymummy, Lizzer and those who've had babies in bed. My (now 2 yo) dd slept with me a lot as a little thing - not really planned but she started off in her own cot, next to bed, came in when she woke for first feed, and usually just stayed because we both fell asleep after that. It was all very relaxed and snuggly and (in answer to you, Bossykate) didn't seem to affect her later sleeping habits - though I did wonder at the time if it would, I was too tired to care! I can't even remember how she ended up in her cot so it must have been a natural transition. In fact, she sleeps much much better than my older child, who was bottle fed and therefore didn't sleep with me in the same way. He's a lousy sleeper and always has been. Dd has always been very clear about when she needs to sleep (the sight of her trundling down the landing to her room and climbing into her own cot for a lunchtime nap has to be seen to be believed!) Ds, instead, will fight it to exhaustion (I was very interested in the GF quote here about sleeping differently if you only sleep when exhausted) Even allowing for me being more relaxed second time round, I can't see what I did differently with each child, so I too believe it must be a temperament thing.
I know cc works for a lot of parents and children so it must have a place in the range of possibilities but I get a little bit concerned that sometimes childcare books put a lot of emphasis on ideas like 'controlling' and 'training' our children, as though they're puppies or something. If adults are to be accepted as individuals in their needs and temperament, so should children be, surely? And sometimes, I'm also surprised at what we expect of our children. For example, moving babies into their own room. As an adult, I don't always like sleeping alone so it always seemed a bit much to expect it of a four month old baby! I wanted mine there, breathing next to me, in cot or bed, but in the same room. (I know some mothers say they and their babies disturb each other and sleep better apart, so please add lots of IMO to this!)

Pupuce- I'm surprised you don't have an opinion on bed sharing. I'd always got the impression you shared your bed with a well-thumbed copy of Gina Ford.

Nooooooo... that's for my night table... ;-)
I don't bed share (except with DH of course) because it isn't my style. But if others do it and like it... why not ????

Was going to start a new thread but seems it might be appropriate to join in this one! Because of all the references to Gina Ford at mumsnet( and I liked the sound of what little I did know about her methods) I bought both her books from Amazon and they arrived today. Now I have not read them from cover to cover but have had a good scan through them and the sleep/ feeding routines do sound a little complicated. Am I wrong? My third baby is due in March, at which time my other two will be 15 months and nearly three (am I mad??)and although we have not had major problems with the first two ( other than my fairly useless breastfeeding experiences) her methods have a strong appeal. I would love to hear from those of you who have used and recommend her methods. Or indeed those who tried and did not find them helpful. Any pitfalls to look out for? Thanks.

Pupuce, why are rocking and other comforts a 'bad habit'? It's only the way society views them that makes them bad. IMO, we have been conditioned into thinking that babies ought to go to go to sleep on their own from a very young age and that anything else is a 'bad habit'. Okay, it's time consuming (although you can do a lot with a baby in a sling!) but I can't think of a better way to spend my time than with my baby and it means that no one has to suffer the distress of them crying. They grow out of these habits eventually. I've never heard of a five-year-old having to be rocked to sleep, although knowing Mumsnet, someone will pop up and tell me this is exactly what they do! I take your point about dummies - my babies never had one, so I hadn't really thought that one through.

Hi Jasper. I'm sure you'll get some responses from people who swear by Gina Ford's routines and dote on her as a genius. Meanwhile I offer you this- sorry if it's a bit of a rant:
I've never tried her routines. I too have skim-read her books to see what all the fuss was about. My main thought is that Ms Ford's expertise is not that of a parent. Rather it is based on her experiences as a maternity nurse and nanny to very well-off families. I'm sure that in this capacity she has picked up a wealth of knowledge regarding the needs of small babies, as indeed she herself states loudly at many points in her books. However, I think she has rather less insight when it comes to considering the lives of ordinary families. I think her advice is particularly poor when more than one child is factored into the equation. Say you've got a child at school, a toddler who attends a drop-in and a newborn baby. The only way you can deposit your baby in the correctly darkened room at precisely the right time is if you forget about taking your older child to school and your toddler to the drop-in. Darling Gina forgets practical realities like this because she's never worked with normal families. The very rich folk, from whose offspring she has gained her baby-taming credentials, don't have to worry about this sort of thing because they hire Gina to look after the baby and an additional nanny to do the school run and take the toddler to the drop-in. Likewise they don't worry about how they can simultaneously provide a night light for a potty trained child and keep a pitch black room for a baby since their accommodation can provide for this with separate rooms for all.
I think, from my own experience, that looking after other people's children is qualitatively different from looking after your own. Studies have shown that if a baby starts crying its mother's blood pressure will go up in response, while other people nearby remain unaffected. Gina Ford has not experienced this and this is maybe what gives her books their USP- she is able to be very cool and rational about what babies, in her opinion, need. This is obviously attractive when people feel overwhelmed by the "demands" of their babies, as most parents do at some point. A legion of fans testify to her popularity. However, as I've said, I personally am not convinced either that she really understands the parent-child relationship in all its subtleties or that she has much notion of how "the other half" lives.

Thanks Scummymummy and don't apologise for ranting! It is rants just such as yours as well as the pro GF ones I am anxious to hear. You put better than me what I was trying to say, namely it does all sound quite complicated if there is more than one very young child involved. If anyone has found it is actually not complicated in practice I would love to hear from them too. Perhaps it is easy(ish) if you have used her methods from the start with all of your children. However I don't see that as being likely as most parents turn to books to help with child rearing only after a sleep problem or whatever has developed with the first or more children. I cannot imagine someone applying the principles of a childrearing expert without at least trying to guddle along with their own instincts for a while! And by then is it too late? Can you start GFing when you already have a needs-warm-milk-to-get-to-sleep-one-year-old??
I see like me you are online after 1a.m. Presumeably those who follow GFs methods are fast asleep and so are their children? More comments, for or against please!

Look everyone, I didn't start this Gina thing, ok?!

But that said, you're a woman after my own heart, Scum!

Whoa, stop!
No, seriously, I have only been navigating this site for a wee while and have just discovered the search facility, and in doing so have realised that to ask opinions on GF might start a small war at mumsnet. There are already lots of pro and anti GF postings in previous discussions so unless you are desperate to add something new I will not expect this thread to go much further!I shall trawl through all the stuff that is already available ( something to do while carrying out controlled crying on my one year old - just kidding, she is fast asleep with a bottle of juice. Don't worry, I was definately kidding there. Excuse me while I spit out this xylitol gum...hahaha, see, I am catching on fast to mumsnet speak...)
It would probably help if I actually READ the GF books....

Thanks Scummymummy for putting so well my misgivings about GF. If it helps any waverers, we have moved from having an on-demand fed, wriggly little fellow in our bed from birth, to going down in his own bed and sleeping through til 6am (he's an early riser, but as we both work outside the home we're all up by 6.15 anyway), without having to use CC. He's 2 and a half now. Like others here, I knew I could never make CC or rigid routines work because of the sort of person I am. It has taken a lot of patience and gradual changes to his bedtime routine but we've got where we want to be regarding sleep, without what I know would have been a destructively stressful experience for us all. So, if you're like us and worried you couldn't see CC or GF through consistently, things do settle down well in time.

I'm sorry, I know I'm about to sound like the anti-Christ here, but I do think babies post about 9 months can get into very bad sleeping habits. How can anyone tell me that my son being awake for an hour to two hours between 2am & 4am at the age of 15 months was anything other than a bad habit?
I know I am not alone with this problem, as I have discussed night-time wakings with so many other friends. The habit arose because everytime my son cried in the night I went in, picked him out of the cot and sat with him on my lap, I would then put him back and sit with him until he returned to sleep. As he got older and his ability to force himself awake grew stronger, so he would do exactly that. Quite happy to drop off to sleep in my lap, but nowhere else. Surely, no-one is suggesting I should have spent the rest of the night sitting in a chair simply to accommodate my son. We tried co-sleeping. He thought it was a ball, he'd bounce around the bed, giggle, hide under the covers and do anything other than sleep. He wouldn't take milk or water, so what else could we do? This was a problem we'd been dealing with for the best part of 3 months.
As I said in my previous post, if someone has a better way of cracking such a problem - please let me know.

Gina Ford isn't the only expert to turn to with controlled crying - indeed i found her approach a bit too regimented. To anyone considering sleep training i would recommend a small book/ leafet called something like 'getting a good night sleep' or something like that - only costs a couple of quid - and is available through CRYSIS. it was totally reassuring in its approach - and even gave you a little chart to fill in - so you really felt you were being supported and could see the results. if anyone is interested - i could go and dig it out and find the publishers name - i found it ab fab and so have my friends who i have recommended it to. Lots of background research into sleep training too.

Bugsy - your situation sounds very similar to mine - except that we had the same situation at about 10 months ish. I agree - that this was a bad habit - happy as larry to fall asleep with us when rocking him, if he came into our bed he thought it was party time. Our son had just got into bad habits - he wanted us to put him to sleep just because of course its nicer to be rocked to sleep than lie on your own - i prefer it when dh is in the bed than when he isn't!!! But ultimately, we were all suffering - including him. he was knackered.

Basically, I would say that you have to treat each child as an individual. Some children are more clingy during the day, and more needy of affection and reassurance day and night. Others seem to be more independent and hardy. A mother and father know their child well in most cases, and are best able to judge whether their child will benefit from a bit of sleep training/ controlled crying.

Suedonim, rocking is fine, I rock my baby a lot but never with the intention of her falling asleep. The point I was trying to make is that if your child can only fall asleep when you rock him, you are "likely" to start a thread about "how do I get my baby to settle in his cot?"... In an ideal situation (I may have been very lucky), a child needs to learn to go to bed and be happy in it.

Jasper - you must have seen the thread I started under the topic : Behaviour. Gina Ford routine with baby number 2. Have a look, it might answer your questions.
My point would be that if you already have a child you will be more relaxed and you can probably follow her routines more casually. DD is 3 months old and she feeds at GF's recommended time - give or take 30 minutes - she starts her naps at GF's recommended time but usually sleeps longer. Tuesday I went to London, DD did not follow the routine, and I was completely fine about it. The next day she fell right back into it.

Scummymummy... I am part of the other half and GF suits me .... I resent what you wrote because you are assuming that parents who follow her routines can't take the pressure... and need some guidance. That may be true for some but by no means all. 2 friends of mine are expecting their second child and didn't follow GF's routines with their first but had such a challenging experience the first time, they have now bought the book. What I found interesting was their perception of the book before and after having read it. They are understanding better some of the "mistakes" (notice the ""!!!!) they made the first time around like the dummy. Both had babies who slept through the night very late (after 8 mo) and when you work that is a challenge.
GF may not have been a mother herself but she has plenty of common sense recommendations. I feel they have worked for me. I completely respect parents who have chosen not to follow her routines. Some have wonderful experiences, others don't... and it is to those who don't and are looking for another option, that I recommend reading her book... they can then judge if it is for them.
Finished ranting !

Oh ! and by the way GF does not even write how to do CC because if you do follow her routine, you do not need it - I'd say that's true in my experience. She mentions it as something people do or might need to resort to if they have an accute problem. She recommends her reader to find out how to do CC.
Christopher Green has (I believe) a chapter on CC.