DS stands immediately and cries - almost incapable of self-settling, please help!

[Yppop]

My 9mo DS was capable of self-settling until he started standing (@8 months) he immediately stands as soon as he awakes and cries until he is picked up or if successful at going to sleep, put on his back and soothed to sleep. This is usually at 7pm ish when he is going to bed, and rarely wakes at night now unless ill. He also will wake crying, but stop as soon as he is picked up.

Does anyone have any ideas to encourage him to a) lie down and b)self-settle...If he can't b) without a) first!

We have plenty of cot-toys, cuddly toys, nightlights, standard bedtime routines, lullabies playing etc. but the first time he is laid on his back he gets up straight away, maybe plays with cot-toys for 5 mins, gets bored, starts moaning and gradually gets totally hysterical and has managed 1.5hrs of this at worst, with repeated checking and resettling by his dad and I. He appears to get angry when he is put on his back again until he is so tired, he can't move/stand and falls asleep. Often the only way to get him to stop automatically standing is to hold him down with a cuddly toy on his chest, do some heartbeat-rate patting of his thigh, head stroking etc until he falls asleep:-/

He is perfectly capable of sitting back down etc. outside of his cot.

We have tried our tame version of controlled crying for over a week now (hanging around silently in his room, walking past his door, letting him know we are about for reassurance) then when quiet, we go down stairs to to another room for a few minutes, and little has changed. Do I really have to do the religiously timed Control Crying to help him learn?

I have always found his crying almost sickening due to the volume and his ability to keep going until whimpering and out of control breathing. I don't think I am cut-out for controlled crying if it goes on for this long (2weeks). What is the record for number of days done, before a result?

Has anyone else had this standing-up problem? Any solutions?

Any wisdom and experience will be gratefully appreciated!:)

I should add that from birth to 7 months he rarely slept well during the day, constantly fighting sleep and was particularly alert from day one. He seems to only have two settings: wide awake or fast asleep and has trouble transitioning.

Would he be more comfy on his tummy? Maybe he is old enough now? My ds slept on side or tummy from 8 months when he decided that was better! He never ever sleeps on his back now. Just an idea. Your situation sounds difficult because you are giving him every chance to settle. Sure someone else will be along to help soon!

Thanks Dycey:) He decided he'd rather sleep on his side/front months ago - and though I sometimes hold him in position on his back, as soon as I let go, he rotates onto his front, sits then stands:-/ Perhaps I should stick him immediately on his side though!

I don't really have any suggestions unfortunately, but watching with interest to see the responses. DD is almost 10 mo and is the same, now that she can stand etc isn't interested in lying down although perfectly capable of getting herself there.

DH and I have taken to lying her back down (seems crazy!) and repeating the same phrase each time in the hope that eventually we'll just be able to say the phrase and she'll connect the dots and realise that we want her to lie down... taking her a lot longer to go to sleep now but like you I don't have the gumption for CC so won't attempt it.

Fingers crossed someone who has conquered this will be long soon, I am guessing that our DC aren't unique in this aspect :).

I'd also definitely let him settle on his back/side - DD, nearly 10 months, goes nuts when on her back (makes nappy changing not much fun...). on her side/front she can sort of snuggle herself to sleep easier.

what we do is sit on the floor by the cot so standing up is less enticing (ie she's closer to us if lying down), then I pat the mattress and say over and over "you need to lie down to go to sleep" and then every so often stand up and lay her down on her side.

at first it took ages and ages, but now she'll stand up again a few times but then lie down and wriggle about and then drop off.

we do stay sitting there while she settles (but not patting or stroking). it's quite a separation anxiety-y time (with us anyway) and it makes it easier just to be dealing with the lying down rather than also with Where-Are-You if you see what I mean.

good luck - I'd hold off on CC for now ...

Should have mentioned that like valbona we stay with her while she settles to sleep (eventually) as well as it stops her from getting too worked up. We just make sure that we don't particularly interact with her except for to lie her down and basically say 'night night, it's time to sleep'.

thanks for your ideas valbona. I had moved any toys that he might be interested in right to the bottom of the bars - next step is me and my 'lay down' mantra.

Spoke to a random HV today (e.g. not my favourite) who said point blank that I should do CC and infered that I should have done it months ago (because it'll take longer because he is more aware).

What is it about HVs - they are so random with their advice, and if its the ultimate way to avoid a problem, why does nobody mention it to you until you are sat there in trouble. Nobody even tells you that babies don't know how to fall asleep. You assume its only the 'difficult' children that struggle.

Rant over!!

How's it going Yppop? I have had a minor breakthrough (touch wood it continues!) and wanted to share in case it will help.

I invested in this star. Once I've done DD's bath, feed, sleeping bag, story and song I say "I love you, night night, time for sleep" and put her in her cot. I turn the star on (it's got a setting for 5 mins or 10 mins, I use the 5 mins) and while it's playing the music and projecting the show onto the roof I leave her to crawl around and do what she wants. Once the 5 mins is up I lie her back down and again say "I love you, night night, time for sleep". She will inevitably sit up and try to play again. I repeat the same but don't get up (I stay sat on the floor). I give her another minute and if she hasn't lain down I get up, lay her back down and repeat.

Next time she tries to get up I say in my very best firm-mummy voice "Lie Down. Sleep". The first time I did it (when I was getting very fed up at her morning nap!), it startled her and she lay down and went to sleep. I repeated then for her afternoon nap and for her night time sleep and it worked each time. I do have to say it each time she tries to get back up but she does take notice and lie down. First night it only took 15 mins for her to go to sleep, last night it was 5 mins. Naps it normally takes her a long time to settle down and go to sleep, in the mornings sometimes 2 lots of 40 minutes. This morning it took 12 minutes using the above!

The other thing I have done is taken the toys out of her cot (I put them back in once she had dropped off to sleep). She still finds things to do (such as scratch the wall through the bars of the cot) but it doesn't hold her attention for as long.

I don't know if the above will help you as they're all different of course, but I wanted to share just in case you can use any of it.

Thanks Practically...

I am about to borrow a similar product as I thought that might be his thing. I have shuffled his furniture around so that he can see the night light directly and I have been a bit more structured with the controlled crying and there seems to be some progress, however he is not laying down, I am doing it for him!

I give him a cuddle say as part of the routine 'night night time for sleep', give him a kiss, stick him on his side, put his giraffe next to him and rub his back/sing lullaby. When I stop he sits up and I pop him back down again. After a couple of goes I then kiss him on the head (he's stood up) and then say goodnight and leave the room, sometimes with the door open and low/no lights outside. I stay in the room nextdoor for 2mins precisely and return, following the above procedure. I then leave the room for 4mins (if needed) and return. He has not needed anymore than this and just surrenders.

We have gone from bloody curdling screaming to moany-crying and I have for the first time seen him lie on his front with his eyes open, still and not moving....so we have progress! I was of course watching from the floor:)

I like the idea that your DD knows what 'lie down' means, so I will start consistently saying that as I pop him down. It appears to be allowing him to learn how to relax and maybe enjoy falling asleep instead of fighting it, but I think we have a long way to go before he himself goes from standing to sitting to lying when he is tired instead of hollering!

All good progress and not very stressful at all!

Any other tips will be gratefully received and I will let you know how the projector affects the process:)

I'm not quite at this stage with my DD, but having read a lot of these threads, it seems to be a fairly common developmental thing many babies go through when they learn how to stand.
It sounds like what you're doing is exactly right and after a few weeks, the advice is that they will relax and the novelty of standing will wear off and (all being well) settling to sleep will get easier.

Good luck

i've noticed more kneeling/sitting now in the cot...ahhh!

I'd read that they get 'stuck' standing long before he could...but I had no idea how much of an addiction it would be for him.

The other thing is that other standing babies in my (albeit small) mama-group have not had this problem...which is why Mumsnet is so great at making you feel normal

I agree with InmaculadConcepcion - give it a bit of time and I think it's likely to disappear on its own.

But no advice from experience as my 11 m.o. needs rocking or feeding to sleep, so I always put him down asleep - he only did the standing if he wasn't quite asleep enough when I put him down. He did do a similar thing when he started to roll, though, and that just disappeared with time (took a few weeks, though).

We are struggling with our DD waking in the night & standing up. She usually still has her eyes closed, as if she is sleep-crawling/standing, so if we respond to her quickly we can lie her straight back down to sleep again, but if we leave her then she falls, gets up again, repeats, until she is wide awake & screaming. It's horrible to hear her fall. Even tho we have buffers all round the cot, you occasionally hear a clunk that is just too hard. during the day she has learnt to get down from standing, so it seems she is looking for us or simply too sleepy/confused/unaware-she's-standing to remember how to do it.

I think we need to work on putting her to bed still awake, but that just means more standing...

We've tried PUPD but she just crawls & stands immediately. She needs to be asleep before going into the cot, which means BF or rocking in our arms. I will try the 'lie down to sleep' mantra and sitting on the floor, advised above.

Is there anything we can do about the sleep-crawling/standing?

Hi grapesmom,

All i can say is that training my little boy to self-settle has been a long process but he's pretty much there (just as I go back to work and he is in nursery!).

Not sure about sleep-crawling/walking, but I'd definitely review the putting down asleep thing - I thought I'd left it far to late, but its a good skill for them to have.

Perhaps if she learns how to gently drift off asleep, the problem may reduce/disappear.

It is hard to do this to start with, but they'll benefit in my humble opinion:)

Good luck!