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Sleep

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Original poster

PU/PD - A quick guide please?

25 replies

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 31/10/2010 20:22

Can some-one/lots of people give me rough outline of PU/PD for me please? I did it with DD for her evening refusal to go to sleep and it worked well, but i cannot remember what i did, over 3 years ago. I remember bits but not enough to be convinced i am doing it right (not that i am really trying with anything like effort right now).

For a non-self-settling, clingy boy cub aged 11 months.

OP posts:

CarGirl · 31/10/2010 20:35

11 months - when the f did that happen????

cuddle until calm, put down in cot, he screams, pick up cuddle until calm, put down in cot, he screams, pick up and cuddle until calm, put down

complaining in cot is fine/unhappy or crying isn't IYSWIM

Original poster

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 31/10/2010 20:58

i know, it has flown by in a haze of sleep deprivation mostly .

Ok, so as i thought. Lets look at 'cuddle til calm' what if he will not be cuddled til calm? what if he screams and cries and moans/is unhappy and arches back insisting on boob, for example?

OP posts:

CarGirl · 31/10/2010 21:10

make it dh's job

Original poster

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 31/10/2010 21:12

alas, its the same, if not worse, for him. as soon as dh goes in to him he knows there is no boob and he screams the place down.

OP posts:

DeadlyPoisonPassionBerry · 31/10/2010 21:13

Pavlov, I've been trying this - or attempted it for half an hour last night

I too am confused by what to do if while trying to "cuddle till calm" you get repeatedly headbutted in the boob by a screaming child until you give in!!??

CarGirl · 31/10/2010 21:18

I guess you do need your dh to cuddle them to sleep so they know there isn't going to be any boob. It seems a different issue, are they used to being fed to sleep?

DeadlyPoisonPassionBerry · 31/10/2010 21:27

I haven't got a DH on hand sadly.

Although I wouldn't like to sit in another room and hear her crying for me anyway. I am such a wuss.

CarGirl · 31/10/2010 21:39

Just co-sleep then instead?

rodformyownback · 01/11/2010 02:52

Deadly you're not a wuss, imo being sensitive to your baby is a reason to feel very smug!
We co-slept with til long after I'd stopped bfing, and finding other ways for him to stay asleep was a bit of a nightmare. Your boobs are right in his face all night long! Cosleeping does get you more sleep in general but isn't the best way to cut out night time bfing iyswim.

I had to refuse very persistently for about a week before DS got the idea there would be no booby at night. Getting attached to his cuddly toy and "spooning" so he was away from my boobs but still getting a cuddle helped. TBH he never really accepted it until I stopped bfing altogether.

OP, I'm sorry I didn't know what PU / PD was til I read your thread! So nothing useful to add. (browsing the sleep section as not getting much myself at the moment!)

Original poster

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 01/11/2010 11:06

cargirl - yes, alas he falls asleep on the boob. He used to feed SO much before bed, it was impossible for him not to. But I am working on that. Perhaps I need to do that first then.

With DD, she took a bottle before bed by around 9 months, so once she had her bottle we would put her to bed and no more milk, so pu/pd worked well. I see that now. I need to stop the boob for sleepy milk

DH said that sometimes he can get him to sleep in his arms, but he then gets upset in the cot, so he could start it then?

OP posts:

CarGirl · 01/11/2010 11:43

Yes I think you need to change the feeding to sleep thing first!!!!

HelenLG · 01/11/2010 14:04

What do u do if they just lay there awake in the cot making gurgling noises?

It would be fine but as soon as I get back ino bed he starts making whingy noises, but as soon as I walk over to cot he's fine again.

Suchanamateur · 01/11/2010 14:53

I've never had much luck with PU/PD but suspect that's because my DS is a heavy massive little thing and my persistence was crap. But there is a good article online with Tracey Hogg which has Q and A which might help? It's a bit long and I'm hopeless at links but if you google Tracey Hogg sleep article, it should come up.

CarGirl · 01/11/2010 19:32

As long as they're not distressed it's fine. If they are happier with you in the room you could do the gradual retreat method????

Original poster

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 01/11/2010 20:05

Would I be very wrong to start co-sleeping with DS? We did when he was young as he fed 1-2 hourly and was much easier. When he would not sleep for more than 1.5 hours at a time at 9 months we moved him in to his own room, but i think he prefers to be with us. Today, for his nap, we slept together in our bed as I was tired and had the day off work, so, he slept, and when he woke briefly, usually at the time we would fight to get him back to sleep, he opened his eyes, saw me, and very content went straight back to sleep. And has been in a fab fab mood all day.

DH said he is happy to have him in bed with us if that is the best thing...i am making a Rod aren't i? . Maybe that is another thread...

OP posts:

CarGirl · 01/11/2010 22:18

If you can sleep whilst he's in there with you why not?

I'd put his cot next to your bed so he can see/smell/sense you?

I didn't do co-sleeping because I just couldn't sleep when they were in the same room as me, every snuffle and I was awake!

rodformyownback · 02/11/2010 07:06

Hi Pavlov

Please, please don't start the Rod thread! I'm not getting enough sleep as it is!!!

Really, you know my name's a joke, right? It's what my mother said I was making by co sleeping but I've yet to see evidence of this mythical Rod (unless you count the ear pulling. Don't get me started on the ear pulling!). If you can sleep while your baby's in bed, you get

-lots and lots of lovely sleep
-happy secure baby
-to see DS grin when he opens his eyes

occasional and uncomfortable frequent and very satisfying sex on the sofa

What's not to like?

My DS is nearly 3 now and comes into our bed around 6 most mornings - something many toddlers I know do whose parents spent months agonising over controlled crying etc. He will happily go to sleep on his own and has stayed over at my sister's and MIL's in his own bed without any problems. In my infinite smugness I believe he sleeps much better than many toddlers and is a happy, confident boy because he's had his needs met without a fight. No Rod so far as I can see!

If you do decide to cosleep on a regular basis though, be warned! Keep any evangelising, (or perhaps even mentioning!) of it strictly to Mumsnet. Otherwise people will think you are a barking mad hippy who is using your child to meet your own unmet emotional needs / avoid having sex with your husband. I've learned the hard way!

Hope all goes well whatever you decide to do

Original poster

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 02/11/2010 09:11

I did start the Rod thread...shall i link? It is the best AIBU thread i have done for a while and everyone has the same view as you!

OMG though, do you know, someone once said to me they thought women breastfed/esp after 6 months to meet their own emotional needs rather than that of the baby! WTF!

Love the name btw!

I had a bad night, but a good one too, if that makes sense. I doubt it. I co-slept, he tossed and turned, but did not cry the place down and did not wake for hours on end. He only fed twice, and only for 10 mins each time. and only woke fully at 6am due to being woken by the lark known as DD!

OP posts:

Original poster

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 02/11/2010 09:28

unanimous

OP posts:

HelenLG · 02/11/2010 20:34

Ended up in tears last night.

Tried PUPD and to an extent it worked. Got DS back into the cot without needing a feed, and he fell asleep but he was on his side, as I had been patting his back. Then came four attempts of trying to roll him back on to his back and waking up crying before giving up in tears and feeding him to sleep.

I didn't want to just leave him laying on his side, cos I was worried about SIDS, but everytime I'd roll him on to his back, his legs would come up to his chest and his arms would be all in his face until he woke up. Tried holding his arms away from his face but just seemed to wake him up quicker.

I even tried waiting for 25 minutes til he was fast asleep to roll him over, but he rolled in his sleep before I got there and woke himself up.

Any advice? Couldn't get him to take his morning nap either, and could face doing more PUPD so ended up driving in the car.

CarGirl · 02/11/2010 20:41

How old is he? Once they can roll themselves then you don't need to be anal about back to sleep just ensure that he won't overheat???

HelenLG · 02/11/2010 20:55

He's 16 weeks, and he can roll over either way (front to back and back to front) when he wants to. If you put him down awake he quite often pulls his legs up and rolls on to his side, but I always put him back to centre.

He's in pyjamas and long sleeved vest with a blanket and sheet at the moment but doesn't feel too hot when I pick him up.

rodformyownback · 03/11/2010 02:26

Hiya Pavlov

So glad things are going well! Thanks for link - I'll check it out now (DS2 keeping me awake from the inside - 3 weeks to go!). Being largely pro co sleeping is my favourite thing about mumsnet! Reassuring to know I'm not quite the crazed minority the local health visitor would have me believe!

Hi HelenLG - hate to say it but I think if anyone on this thread's making a rod for themselves it's you! It's definitely a good thing to be worried about SIDS but perhaps you are taking the advice to the extreme? (I remember having decided to cosleep with DS1, I spent the first 3 months with a permanent crick in my neck as all pillows were banned from the bed. I once sent DH to sleep on the sofa because he'd had a beer after work!)

I found the following advice on www.patient.co.uk/health/Cot-Death-Reducing-the-Risk.htm:

"Lie your baby on their back to sleep
In other words, do not lie him or her on their front or side. Cot death is less common in babies who sleep on their back. Also, there is no evidence that babies who sleep on their back will choke. (This unfounded worry was why it was common to put babies on their front in the past.) It is important to put babies on their backs for day-time naps and any other times of sleep, in addition to the longer night-time sleep.

When your baby is aged about 5-6 months they will normally start to be able to roll over. At first, if you find that your baby has rolled over onto their front, then turn them back onto their back. However, you do not need to keep on checking in the night. Soon, they will be able to roll over and back again on their own and, like adults, they will toss and turn in their sleep. When they can do this it is fine for your baby to find their own position to sleep. The risk of cot death falls sharply at this age and it is safe for them to sleep in whatever position they like."

I know it says 5-6 months but as your baby can already roll both ways, I would think this advice applies?

CarGirl · 03/11/2010 21:05

Helen I agree if your baby can roll easily from side to back and side again just leave him to it, he clearly prefers sleeping on his side and you are p'ing him off my waking him up, not surprised he's cross

Mine were such lazy lumps they didn't move much until about 8 months

jollyma · 03/11/2010 21:30

I had trouble getting ds to sleep through until he could roll and then he always slept on his front. He's still an early riser but will sleep happily in his cot. It was a bit of a lightbulb moment when i realised what the problem was all along. I kicked myself for not realising tbh. We went from being woken 5 times a night to none within a week.

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