daytime naps

[Samgas]

We have a 17 week old daughter who has a big big problem with daytime naps - she's exhausted all day but fights and fights and when she does finally go off wakes up again after exactly 30 minutes- she's good at night and usually only wakes once or twice and feeds then goes straight back off again. She used to sleep in a cradle by our bed but for the last month has been in our bed, but we've just brought up her cot into our room for night sleeps- we were trying to get her to nap in her cot, but we've also tried her in our bed in our arms, downstairs etc etc and nothing seems to work - has anyone else had the same problem? is she too young for sleep training? any tips or ideas? she really needs to sleep during the day and is exhausted by 4 or 5 pm every day!

Samgas, if you have only just introduced her to her cot then that will be a strange environment to her so will not help. In addition, if she is still in with you at night then she may not like being on her own. What time do you put her down at night - so is there a period before you go to bed where she sleeps on her own?
My Charlotte (22 weeks) still screams when I put her down during the day but will go off after settling her once or twice every 5 mins & then sleeps for up to 2hrs.
Try to put her down more or less at the same time each day - I found Charlotte is more tired for her morning sleep than her afternoon so I introduced the cot only in the morning at first. Meanwhile, can you take her out in her pram or in the car for a drive if that sends her to sleep - at least then she'll be getting used to sleeping during the day.
Saying all that - at least she goes off for 30 mins so its a start & maybe as she gets more used to the cot & sleeping on her own she'll go off for longer.

judeb- We put Paris down after a bath at around 8pm and then we don't go to bed until maybe 10 or 11ish and she's fine on her own. She seems a lot more relaxed at bedtime there's very little crying and she often just rolls over and goes to sleep, but during the day it's a big battle to get her to go down and she needs lots of soothing (which we're trying to cut down on). Do you leave your baby alone to cry at all, cos we've tried sitting by her cot and holding her hand etc and she keeps screaming and then nodding off and after a split second startles and starts screaming again - this can go on for a good 2 hours and by then her routine is out of the window. She will only sleep in her pram for about 20 minutes and goes to sleep straight away in the car. We're wondering whether to try just putting her down for naps and doing the checking every 5 mins and letting her cry, but how long do you let it go on ? Paris is so stubborn I can imagine her crying for hours and not giving in. Paris was ill for a while with undiagnosed reflux and has just been put on medication for it- she's a million per cent better now, but for the first 12 weeks we rocked her and nursed her etc etc as she constantly screamed and screamed, so she's in a lot of bad habits which we need to sort out now she's okay. We are on the verge of trying this crying method as my Husband is on a weeks holiday so it would be a lot easier for us to do it while both of us are home. How old was your baby when you started leaving her to cry for 5 mins?

I found that consistancy was the key. It did take a while though. I used to let my son play in his cot before I introduced it as a place to sleep, so that the surroundings would be familiar.
I also found that he would go to sleep much more happily in the morning than at luchtime at first.
I too often have to go and settle him several times, although usually only at lunchtimes now and only because he is moving around much more and gets himself stuck in odd positions.

I am a contented baby book follower (although not exactly to the letter) and found that it really has worked for me. If you are interested there is a lot more in the dicussions on "competition between sleep/feeding".

At her age I should think that a good morning nap a good lunchtime one and perhaps a short one in the late afternoon would be needed.
I know that its a pain to be at home all the time but would suggest that you try being at home during nap times for a week or so and put her in the cot each time with the curtains closed so that she gets used to it.
When she is used to sleeping at the same time you could start taking her out and relaxing your strictness and if she is tired she will fall asleep in her pram/ car seat or wherever you are.

Good luck.

Samgas I just read your last post you must have been typing at the same time as me.
I absolutely hate hearing my son scream. He suffered badly with wind and I was never sure that it wasn't wind that was stopping him going to sleep. as a result I kept picking him up and winding him if he was still screaming after a minute or two.
I have to say that because I hated the crying I often found it easier to hold him quietly in my arms in a chair by the cot until he either fell asleep or was so nearly there I thought he'd sleep when I put him down. He also has a soft toy which he usually now needs to go to sleep.
Another question is what are you doing before you put your daughter down to sleep? I found that if my son had been playing he was usually too hyped up to relax and sleep straight away, and that a period of cuddling,looking at books(I used cloth ones due to his need to chew absolutely everything), singing songs repetitively and very softly was needed to calm him down first. I also used to change his nappy before starting on this and close the curtains to signal it was bedtime.

Because of hating the crying and not wanting to leave him upset I tried all of the above for ages first. He was probably about 4-5 months before I left him to cry for a minute or two. I only resorted to lengthy crying at lunchtime a bit later. Like your daugter Alexander is very stubborn and the one day I decided to try it he cried for about an hour and a half before he fell asleep. I was in checking him and calming him down without picking him up every couple of minutes during this period. It continued for a couple of days getting shorter each time. Now he is pretty good and takes about 5-10 mins to settle on the whole at lunchtime and less in the mornings unless I've misjudged his sleepiness and then he can howl until he gets tired.
I hated leaving him to cry. It did work after a couple of days though, but made me feel absolutely awful while doing it. However he is now much happier for it. I must say though that I'm glad I tried the soft approach first as it helped develop an expectation of sleeping at the same time every day.

Definately hovewever the consistancy of sleeing times was the key regardlees of the method.

Alison222 - Thanks a lot! Today I've just tried putting her in our bed for her nap and so far she slept for 30 mins then woke up, checked I was there ( I lay down beside Her) and now she's gone back off - so now I'm sure it's a case of her not wanting to be alone that is the main problem with her sleeping. How do I sort this one out???? is it a case of being Tough and trying the crying, checking method??? did you leave the room and let your son cry for periods?

alison222 -We must have been typing away together! Paris just woke up properly so she had about 50 mins ( a record) maybe if I keep trying for a few days to get her used to napping with me beside her so she knows it's nap time at 9, 2 and maybe 5 then after 3 days I'll try putting her in her cot to nap and letting her cry a bit????

I think 6 months is the youngest recommended age for sleep training. Have you tried putting her to bed earlier at night? Then she might get all the sleep she needs overnight and won't require much in the way of daytime naps. If she is exhausted by 5pm you could try bathing her then to calm her. Also, bear in mind that late afternoon/evening is a difficult time for many babies and parents - so you certainly won't be alone! Maybe she needs something to suckle on. Could you settle her with a breastfeed or get her to take a dummy?

Personally,I found sleep training worse than useless. After my daughter had cried for 3 hours and vomited twice, I decided it wasn't worth the anguish.

My son wasnt a very good sleeper during the day until he got older. He also had routines which changed every now and again. I am also one that could not leave him to cry. He sleeps in our bed or his cot now but I always soothe him to sleep with either a dummy and cuddle or a breastfeed. He nearly always just falls to sleep in the car or his pram. Have you tried sleeping with one of her blankets then putting it in her cot so she has your smell close to her? Ds occassionally had something I had worn close to him. He is now 11 months and will sleep for a couple hours at a time and nearly always through the night.

JOE - Paris goes to bed at 7.30 or 8, we've tried earlier but she doesn't seem to settle until then. I've tried everything to get her to sleep from rocking to feeding to walking the floor and it works temporarily after 40 minutes or so , but then she's up again after 20 or 30 minutes, it's like she needs to slep but doesn't really know what to do when the feeling comes over her so she fights and fights it. I really don't know what to do as I feel that she really needs a good nap during the day !

Samgas, babies have a much shorter sleep cycle than adults only about 45 mins compared to our hour and a half. This means that they might well wake up after coming into a period of very light sleep after this time. I used to find it almost impossible to get my son to sleep for longer than this at lunchtime, but by making sure that he had regular naps even if they weren't as long as I would have liked he seemed to get through the day.
I read that a baby that age would find it difficult to be awake for more than about 2 hours at a stretch without becoming overtired. This means that if they get up at 7 they are ready for a nap at around nine. Assuming they sleep for 45 mins/1 hour they are ready again to sleep about 12ish. If you can manage to get her to have a longer sleep in the middle of the day this would be better as she will make it through the rest of the day more happily. Only now that Alexander is 81/2 months old am I finding this to be easier as he is wearing himself out more in an effort to crawl and stand,and naturally sleeping for about 1 1/2 hours but I think that the theory is sound even if the practice is a bit more tricky

Your nap times sound reasonably OK to me from my experience, except that possibly the lunchtime one is a bit late if she has been awake from 10 in the morning she is likely to be exhaused by 2.

I also found that my son needed to not be hungry put down - obvious I know, but have you got regular feeding times? I only ask because she may only want short naps if she is waking up feeling hungry. For instance I used to feed my son at 11ish, and try to start settling him for a nap at 12ish (he was having mammothly long feeding sessions at that point). If he then slept well that was great, and because I knew he wasn't hungry I could encourage him to sleep again if possible.
I used to put the moniotor on and be there at the first murmur in an effort to stop him waking properly.
I know that all the books advise against it but I also have used a dummy to help calm him down and if he does fall asleep with it always pluck it out again.Sometimes a quick suck on the dummy if he seemed to be waking after 45 mins at lunch was enough to get him back to sleep - either that or stroking his face/cuddling without picking him out of his cot.

In the afternoons I would always make sure he was awake by 2 hours before bedtime so he would be tired enough to sleep. If this meant waking him up so be it.

Like Chairmum I also found that bathime can be a great distraction.
Walking in the park in the afternoons used to send him to sleep (he no longer has an afternoon nap but is in bed by 7). Many was the time I would get almost home again to find he had just dropped off and know that if I came indoors the temperature change would wake him up (he was born in December), so I would have to go for another walk around the block.

Don't be too despondent about the length of the nap. Its surprising how even the shortest nap can revive a baby so long as they have them regularly.

Samgas, my son doesnt settle down at night until anything from 9pm onwards nearly always having a quick nap of around an hour around 6pm (as if he is getting his energy up for playtime when his dad gets in). Are you feeding solids yet, if not maybe she is ready for more. I have never got hung up on his routines, just really gone with the flow. ds only used to sleep for the times Paris does, perhaps a walk in the fresh air would help. Be careful not to get too stressed about it, she maybe picking up on this.

I would strongly recommend that you borrow/buy Dr Richard Ferber's 'Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems' - It's sold in just about every catalogue plus amazon - I bought it when dd was born on the grounds that prevention is better than cure - it seems to be the ''bible'' of health visitors etc

It taught me lots - and also let me know I was doing '' the right thing'' when I let dd cry rather than picking her up at various points - I'd be the first to admit that letting her cry can be horrendous and there are days when i just can't do it - but having read the book and so knowing that I was ''helping'' her by letting her cry as she had to ''learn'' to sleep through crying was a help.
good luck

I remember my daughter being very similar in sleep patterns until she got older, nearer a year. I found that a little bit of routine did help and tried to set up a 'feed, bath, sleep' routine for her from around 3 months. What I mean is I bathed her twice a day so that her morning sleep and night-time sleep were relatively easy to get her down for. I also did baby massage classes which also helped to calm her down. You don't need to do a class just get some almond oil or equivalent (I was told not to use Johnson's Baby Oil for some reason) and just run your hands up and down the legs, the belly, arms, etc. You need to be a little firm and there are books you can buy on this, I did a class with Peter Walker who has done a book. My daughter loved this and I never did it as much as I should have but it certainly helps them to unwind and after a class she would sleep for anything up to 2 hours when she would usually sleep for only 30 minutes. May be worth a try? I too think sleep training is only recommended for after 6 months but this may be for trying to get your child to sleep through the night. I did try it and found it really difficult but now find that if I put my daughter down to sleep she can sometimes cry and I will go in after about 2 minutes to calm but not pick her up and it did eventually work but it is hard to stick with.
Good luck.

My son,now 8 months, has not had a proper day time sleep since he was about 4 months. he does, however, sleep very well at night. I am somewhat surprised that daytime naps are such a big issue - surely if a baby doesn't sleep during the day, then that indicates that he or she doesn't need to sleep during the day? Or am I missing something?

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I agree with Bloss- my son has always napped very well during the day (1.5 or 2 hours) + 12 hours at night but some of my friends with children of a similar age do not nap... and one of them did the CC and found as you did Bloss that her child was much more restful and content once he started napping (he didn't at all before and she was convinced he would not)
So worth a try !

Thanks Bloss -seeing your comment further down made me finally decide to try some controlled crying properly with my dd during her lunchtime nap - we're Gf followers but she has never had more that an hour at lunch time except on v rare occasions - thus at 7 months still needed the 4pm nap that she should have dropped.
When she woke and started crying around 1.30 I turned ''hits of the eighties'' up loud and shut the kitchen door! - and she cried on and off for an hour. The the following 3 days she has taken the full 2 hours with just a 2 min cry around the 90min stage - fingers crossed it lasts - tho I will certainly continue with the cc if need be - I just need to ensure I can't hear it! - my few pathetic attempts before failed as I sat listening to her. She has certainly been happioer overall since the change - and has slept better at night - she had been waking around 5.30-6 and now she's back between 6 and 7

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