Doing the no-cry sleep solution/ Pantley Pull Off and its not going well - any advice?!

[AisieSusie]

Anyone had experience with this method? Any wise words?

Should I
A. persevere
B. get even firmer [move from the Pantley Pull Off to the Pick Up Put Down technique]?
C. adjust what I am doing as am doing it wrong?
D. something else... like give up and cry?

Background is that DS [6 months] is a classic terrible sleeper, first 3 months with colic/ silent reflux and needed to be on me/his daddy to sleep. Got a hammock, which improved matters, but only marginally, currently sleeps most of the night in his hammock, and the last bit co-sleeping.

I have decided I need to take a bit of control and do some gentle sleep training - not least because I am going back to work in a few weeks and need to get more sleep to function. However I cannot do the controlled crying as its just not something I agree with.

So read Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution, and thought it sounds great. Have been trying a selection of her techniques for the last 5 days, and I think we've hit a problem.

Am doing the Pantley Pull Off as he definitely associates sleep and comfort with the boob. So that means letting him have the boob when he wakes and cries, but trying to get him off it whilst sleepy but still awake to gradually put some distance in between the act of falling asleep, and the milk/ boob. Thats supposed to mean he can gradually learn how to fall asleep without needing to wake me to breast feed.

However, he's back to waking every hour or more. For example, here is last night:

20:30 - 23:00 - 2hrs 30mins asleep, the longest time of the night. Then woke, cried, tried rocking and shhh-ing didn;t work, bf, he quickly drifted into dream feeding. PPO [Pantley pull off], he cried, bf again, PPO x 3 before I put him back into the hammock. He groaned a bit but settled
23:30 - 00:45 - 1hr 15mins, asleep, woke, cried, rocking didn't work, bf, PPO x 4
... and the same throughout the night, with sleep times between 45 mins and 1 hour... not sure if I am getting him off my boob whilst he's 'awake but sleepy' as he drops back to sleep so quickly, but cries if I take him off the boob
07:00 - 08:00 - co-sleeps with me, not sure how much sleep he actually gets but I doze whilst he bfs/ scratches my face and steals my glasses and does a bit of dozing himself

I can get him to go back to sleep within minutes of waking by bf, but can't seem to get him to sleep longer and reduce waking times?

So what is causing this? And what on earth do I do now?

I wonder if I am pulling him off the boob too soon, so he ends up not full and waking up constantly for more? But then how to get him to stop falling asleep on the boob as he rapidly starts dream feeding?
Or is it just a period of adjustment and I should continue? Or should I be firmer and do the other main technique she has - Pick Up Put Down, without offering any milk?

Please any advice? This feels like a last attempt, but I know I won't be able to function like this when I go back to work, and dh is now not living with me, so don't have any help at night

Oh, it's really tough. And if CC doesn't feel right it won't be right for you. PUPD doesn't work for everyone and is also supposed to be a last resort.

I know it's not what you want to hear right now, but 6 months is still quite young to be trying to change much about sleep patterns, mainly because there's still so much going on to upset their sleep: weaning, teething, learning new stuff, illness, etc etc etc. Is it worth going back to whatever gets you both the most sleep (however 'un'ideal) for a few days, just to recharge your batteries a bit, and then having another go? Are there any other behavioural/developmental changes that might be linked to disturbed sleep?

It's a bugger but some kids seem to express their reaction to any kind of event, good or bad, through their sleep. DD1 was like that - other kids would go off their food, she'd would eg be learning to walk and immediately start waking every hour again. What was his pattern before you tried the PPO?

I did the PPO for months with DD1, and you do have to remember that none of the NCSS techniques are quick fixes. Baby steps... If you're desperate (and only you know if you really are) you may have to try one of the less gentle approaches.

Good luck for tonight and every night!

just thought of another maybe reason...

Is the Hammock no longer working for him? The rocking motion is invaluable, and is a great way of settling him BUT it does constrict his movements, he can't roll over in it, although he has a damn good try every night.

He is starting to develop physically - he has started to 'bear crawl'/ drag himself along on his tummy, and we are starting to wean him [blw], and just started baby swimming... I've heard that babies in cots are flipping themselves over onto their tummies by this age, and practicing crawling in their sleep etc. He can't do those things in the hammock, maybe thats breaking up his sleep?

What do you think? Clutching at straws?

Would be awful if I have to go cold turkey on the rocking, not sure how on earth he'd sleep if I tried to get him into the cot [oh lordy]

Thanks Mij, I guess am desperate as he seems to have stopped any of the ways I could get 3 hrs sleep before, hence the push towards sleep training!

It may be he is hitting lots of development milestones, so sleep is disturbed, as I mentioned in my last X post...

I guess I want to continue the PPO [can't see many other options?!], but am not sure I am doing it right.

You mentioned you did it with your little one, did you find it difficult to time? Are there any tips you could give? I find he just phases quickly into dream-feeding, so its difficult to know when to pull off.

[I am at my wits end, and aware of the ticking time bomb of going back to work, but feel sooo strongly about CC, am a bit stuck between needing to hold self together and not wanting to harm my baby]

Hi AisieSusie

I tried PPO etc. with my LO at 7 months after increasingly disrupted sleep (hers and mine) and an over-strong feed-to-sleep association.

It quickly became clear that the gentle techniques were actually making her more distressed. I discovered that if I left her protesting for a bit (not screaming - more intermittent short moments of crying then pausing...) she would eventually quieten down and fall asleep on her own. If I picked her up, patted or Sshed her etc. it made her more upset that I wasn't letting her fall asleep at the breast.

Bedtime is the most important time to do this, but I also left her a few times during the night to settle herself too. At no time did I leave her yelling in a meltdown kind of fashion. From the first day, there was an improvement. And 25 mins was the longest she protested for.

In total, it took three days and although she still wakes from time to time, the sleep stretches are much longer and she wakes a lot less than she did. Often she will self-settle without a murmur and in general, she'll go to bed without a whimper (in fact, often gets quite excited about it!). I still feed her a couple of times during the night, but at least now she can self-settle which (I hope) will give her the tools she needs to gradually sleep for longer without my help and eventually through the night.

It wasn't much fun listening to her protesting when previously I would go to her within a few seconds of hearing her. But I realised by doing so, I wasn't giving her the chance to settle herself.

Anyway, I feel your pain! I know this probably isn't what you wanted to hear, but it worked for us.

Don't talk to me about naps, though...

haVE you seen the jay gordon method?
when my DD got to 14m i just refused to night feed her, she was angry but she quickly within a few days accepted , she sleeping much better now still cosleeping, but i wouldnt have wanted to do any techniques at 6m personally, even tho i was miserable, but i didnt have to return to work tho....

I agree with what InmaculadaConcepcion has said. I was doing the same and I think the more you faff/intervene/shush/pat etc can sometimes , but not all the time, make my DD harder to settle. It's even worse sometimes if DH goes in after I have initially put her down as she thinks it's playtime once she sees him!!! Now I leave her to it a bit, she grumbles and cries a little (I always go in if it escalates) and she usually quietens within 10 mins maximum.

My DD's sleep patterns - both getting to sleep and staying asleep - have both improved massively over the last week or so really, so maybe you just need to give it a bit of time?? Everyone said to me it would get better and I didn't believe it, but then it just did, all of a sudden, pretty much overnight.

As for the night wakings, I think you just have to go with it for a bit as this is the age where there is just sooo much going on in their little heads/bodies. We have just had a couple of weeks of increased wakings but now we are hopefully back to once or twice a night. I didn't try to sleep train, I just did whatever she needed me to.

Are you sure the silent reflux is sorted? Your DS sounds exactly like mine - silent reflux, slept on me/DH for months. His silent reflux wasn't significantly gone until recently (he's nearly 1).

When I begun weaning it took a while to realise some foods triggered reflux episodes plus his meds needed increasing aa he had a big growth spurt at 6 months and 9 months. A lot of food gives him wind which disturbed his sleep a lot so he wanted feeding.

Also his first tooth came at 6 months!

I also had the same issues re feeding to sleep. Tried PUPD for three nights. Didn't work but he did become easier to settle in the cot.

We did a lot to make sure he slept better and self settled:

• cot on a slope using cot blocks so his head was elevated. I remember we tried to put it flat and he woke up screaming in pain caused by wind which being flat made worse.
• early bedtime - with the extra development/moving around, he needed to be in bed by half 6. Now he's walking he's even more tired!
• rein back the weaning. I had to cut out acidic foods (tomatoes, citric fruit) and no dairy or soya. He didn't get onto 3 meals until 9 months and I kept up night feeds.
• naps naps naps!
• putting down drowsy after a feed on his front. He loves sleeping on his front and the first night he rolled over, he slept til 3am! He does flip around at night but it's a lot easier to settle him on his front.
• getting DH to resettle at night if he woke less than three hours after a feed. He wouldn't settle for me without a feed and helped break his feeding habit.

That's a lot there but I hope it helps you. It's bloody hard but it does get easier!

Aisie, my advice is ditch Pantley. Do PUPD. That's exactly what I did when DS was 9 months and it worked.

The problem with Pantley's approach is that it takes AAAAAGES to get anywhere, then BAM! Teething. Or BAM! Developmental changes. Or BAM! Illness. And you go back to square 1, then it takes you another month and a half to get back to where you were.

Whereas with firmer methods you'll still get these interruptions, but you can get them back into good routines FAR more quickly.

Not sure if this will work if you introduce it with a 6 monther, but have you tried white noise? You can either detune a radio, or record the washing machine/ hairdryer/ hoover/ any machine noise. Ooh, the car would be a good one! Then play it while you're putting him down to sleep and keep it going throughout the nap. It needs to be pretty loud - apparently our heartbeats (when bambino is in the womb) are as loud as a vacuum cleaner in their ears. So they find white noise sounds soothing, reminiscent of mama's body sounds.

Works a treat for us - when I take DD out of the sling asleep, she always wakes, but I lay her down with the detuned radio on and she goes straight back to sleep.

Best of luck!

aisieSusie well if all those responses prove anything its that different things work for different people!

With the PPO I modified my technique over time. To start with, at 6mths DD1 would literally not sleep AT ALL unless attached (and she'd been manageable between 4-6mths) and my ambition was to just make it downstairs to eat something in the evenings, so I used to leave it until she was about to let my nip slide out of her mouth anyway, and then when she fussed (as she always did) give it back, and repeat and repeat until she eventually gave up fussing. I found I could only do this if I was feeding her lying down (we coslept anyway). When she became more leaveable, I started doing it earlier, and we went back to me doing it endlessly (one night I lost count at 80something times), but I started counting to 20 seconds-ish between removals. It still took weeks to get improvement, mind. And at about 18mths she just suddenly started rolling away from me when she'd had enough. I suspect she would have done that whether or not I'd done the PPO, and it just made me feel better that I was doing something pro-active. A friend, however, tried it with the same age child (around 6mths) and it worked within a week. Once again and all together now, it depends on your child, and on your, and on your circumstances etc etc.

Dr Jay Gordon is great but really designed for older babies.

Speedy's point about NCSS taking ages is right, and yes, disruptions happen along the way, but if you're not really sure about the 'firmer' techniques being OK for you and your babe at all, will you want to redo them if a holiday, illness, whatever sets you back? That's not a challenge, just something to consider! My mates who did CC or variations of such did seem to have to 'reset' their kids more often, and more vigorously, than I had to do anything with mine, but that's just anecdote, no proof of anything of course.

It's one of those times when people saying 'you know what's best for you' is no help. I just wanted to yell 'but I don't bloody know what's best, I've never DONE this before I've no bleedin' CLUE!' If you try a PUPD, CC or variant, you'll know instantly if you can do it properly.

Oh, and the hammock thing - I'd try the cot, sometimes they go for things and make transitions far easier than we imagine they will.

How have the last few nights been?

Hi AS

Having similar problems with DD2 (5mths) including including falling asleep on boob and silent reflex, I have just moved her out of the hammock as I noticed that her moving her arms around at night would waken her. Thought it would be a nightmare in her cot but it is a big improvement straight away!

It may be easier on you all if you go for co-sleeping all night - when I went back to work when DS was 10mo and still bf-ing lots, I found it was the only way to make sure I got lots of sleep. I barely woke up to feed him, just latched him on and drifted off again. It also really helped me to feel close to him and 'rebond' when I was doing long hours at work.

Around 16 mo I night-weaned him, and that only took 3 or 4 nights. Had tried at 13 months and it didn't work, so I really do think it's a case of when they are ready, it's easy. From that point he has slept through (still co-sleeping) until 6am, has a quick feed and sleeps on until 8-9am. We all get loads of sleep.

I personally think you can either battle to 'train' early, however gentle the method, or you can simply wait until they are ready. Agree with others who have said it all depends on your baby - and trust your instincts, you will know what's best.

Good luck!

hello, thanks for all the replies.

Mij thanks for asking after me! Going, well, not terribly well but still trying and hoping something will change for the better!

I have continued to do what I was doing for a few more nights, as the book said do it for 10 days before even thinking about whether it was working or not... and on the 10th day it did get better [to one period of 5 hrs sleep OMG!!!], but much worse again on the 11th and onwards - must have been a fluke.

But it shows he can do it damn it - so why isn't he!?!?!

I wrote down a whole plan of the day to see what I did differently that might have made the difference, and the only things I can see are

• went to baby music in the morning [can't do this everyday!]
• he napped 3 times, including one hour at 5-6pm [supposedly the wrong time to nap altogether, too close to bedtime]
• ate 2 meals [am weaning him erratically, so must get more routinised i think]
• had his grandparents to visit [again, can;t do this everyday, they live 250 miles away!]

So on day 14 of mummy sleep deprivation torture sleep training, and have made a few adjustments to what I am doing, on your feedback and to make it a bit more bearable:

Have stopped doing the Pantley Pull Off for every single feed through the night, as I was going mad from lack of sleep, and I think it was upsetting him and making him demand the boob more, not less. So PPO for first feed only [counting like you recommended Mij], then only if he;s feeling very relaxed for others.

Not sure if this will dilute the message too much, but I am so sleep deprived and have caught horrid cold and can't bear to carry on doing it the other way

Am concentrating on getting the nap times and the bedtime routine and first sleep of the night right, and will go from there.

Am [arrgh] letting him cry a little bit if I think he's really tired and it may just be the bit before he suddenly drops off [torture for me, and realised I have to look at a clock to get any sense of time as it immediately feels like 5 hrs! have let him cry for max 3 mins before I grab him again, but has been enough to work sometimes...]. I don't know if he thinks am just becoming slow to pick him up can;t hear him so needs to scream louder or if its teaching him to self soothe... poor chap.

NB when I say 'leave to scream', I mean with me rocking hammock and sh-ing/ singing, trying to be calm and clock watching.

Agree that sometimes me being there makes him more worked up, not less so - all of that 'pat him to reassure him' actually makes him hysterical, so no go there.

Am thinking about trying the PUPD for NAPS, as he's not quite so clingy and traumatised in the day - will let you know how I get on with this!

Warmseabreeze thats really good for you - bravo!

Please tell me exactly how you did this?! I can't begin to think about how to get him into a cot, did you put her in it for a nap first, or get her used to it first somehow?

How did she cope without the rocking, I think I;ve ended up relying alot on being able to soothe by rocking, lost count of the number of times I reach out and rock him in the night.

Also we use the cot as the place to put him for short periods in the day, with the mobile on it makes a kind of tiny play pen, how shall I get him to think its a good place to sleep? If he's tired and in it at the moment, his face crumples and he cries til he gets taken out of it.

missjackson thanks for the advice about cosleeping. To be honest, I think thats what I'll do, as am going to miss him horribly when I go back to work, so would be nice to snuggle up with him at night.

Did yours do 'reverse cycling' where he fed more at night once you'd gone back to work? Am worried I'll get even less sleep?

missjackson I also wanted to ask how exactly did you night wean so quickly at 16 months?

I am in the same kind of situation as Aisie but DD is almost 12 months, co-sleeping and breastfeeding, waking 3 or 4 times at night...
No idea if I should start weaning or sleep training first, and fearing I'll end up BFing at night anyway for many more months, so that DH (in the bedroom next to us) can get some sleep...

Aisie - good luck, I totally totally sympathise with the sleep deprivation/getting ill while doing the PPO, I gave up myself quite quickly at 7 months but wish I hadn't - but you need to function during the day too! I'll keep reading this thread :)

Agreed that co-sleeping allows eveyone to get sleep in the short term. It is so convenient for BF and gives baby closeness which it naturally wants after being tucked up in your womb!

There are many threads like this on here, including mine. DS is 5 and half months and has always breast fed to sleep, day and night. It is worth noting again, as others have pointed out, our babies are very young and feeding to sleep is also the most natural thing - so we aren't actually doing anything wrong! However I agree that there has to be some middle ground between that and leaving them to cry -ie. encouraging some form of self settling, that's why I too am posting on here. Agreed too every baby is different.

BTW, CC is not recommended for babies under 12 months, as they are unable to understand the concept that you may return, and only know the now, that you aren't there.

Have been recommended PU/PD Baby Whisperer, any experiences of this?

Susie can I ask how you got on with this? I am 13 days in to doing the PPO and am not seeing a great deal of improvement with my 8 month old despite doing it morning, noon and night.

I will persevere though as I tried PUPD and I HATED it....

On the cot thing, my DD has just moved to her cot and we found that if we put a hand on her chest and very gently rock her on the mattress (tiny movements) it works just like rocking a crib and way better than patting.