Pantley Dance / putting down a baby before they're completely asleep

[AngelDog]

Has anyone got any (positive!) experience of using the Pantley Dance method from the No-Cry Nap Solution to teach a baby how to be put down in their cot before they're fast asleep? Or any other method?

My 6.5 month old DS was starting to self-settle for naps a month ago, then hit a nap-resistant phase when he forgot how to go to sleep even with help. In the last month, he has learnt how to push up on his tummy, roll, sit unsupported and cut three teeth, so I can understand why things went pear-shaped.

Now I can get him to sleep relatively easily quite a bit of the time, but he goes mental every time I try to put him down in his cot. I've been trying the Pantley Dance where you alternate rocking and stillness, and I'm not putting him down until he's pretty much asleep but without much success so far. I put him above / in the cot still in my arms, still rocking, but the moment that any part of his body touches the mattress, he goes mental. Shush patting etc doesn't help.

It's now starting to be a problem at bedtime too, which it wasn't before . Fortunately we co-sleep from the time I go to bed, so the night wakings are okay.

Any tips?

Hi AngelDog

I am starting to wonder if we are always going to have problems with sleep .

DD went through this phase. She would be fast asleep in my arms but the moment any part of her touched the cot, she would be wide awake in an instant and no amount of shushing or patting would get her back off. She also did it at night but only for a few days, which I was thankful for as it was worse at night (hysterical crying).

After trying all sorts I decided it was better she had a nap, wherever that may be, than not so I just let her sleep on me. Was frustrating as couldn't get anything done, go to loo etc. I just made sure I had a drink of water and the laptop near so at least I could MN.

It is better now in that I can get her in the cot once she is asleep. I always put her down first to see if she will settle herself and she will for maybe one nap a day. The others I feed her to sleep but once she drops off, I can get her in the cot at least so I can get on with things.

As with every other stage of her sleep journey, I am not convinced that anything I have done has helped; rather that she has just grown out of it in her own time. The only thing I have done consistently is to provide whatever assistance she needs to get to sleep; otherwise she would be awake all day I'm sure .

HTH

I think my DS is at a similar stage to your DS. I've got stuck in a rut of feeding DS to sleep for naps and at nighttime. He wakes up a bit when I put him in his cot, usually looks around and seems to decide if the situation is acceptable or not! he'll then either go to sleep or start making a fuss.

This morning I've left him playing with some toys in his cot and he seems to have got himself to sleep . I'm sure it's a one off but shows that it's worth trying anything!

The one tip I can give you is that when you put him in the cot and he starts to stir just put your hand by the side of his face (as you shush/pat/rub his tummy). My DS turns his head towards my hand and this sometimes has the effect of settling him.

Oh and try putting your DS in a grobag if you're not already using one - this stops him from feeling an abrupt change in temperature when you put him in the cot.

Good luck

*PDog, I was thinking of you just this morning. DS is now refusing to nap unless fed to sleep, and when I try to unlatch him he chases my nipple around with his eyes closed, and cries if I don't pop him back on. Sound familiar?

Yes, I do sometimes wonder whether I'll still be struggling with DS's sleep by the time he's 5 or 6. I seriously don't know how people manage with a baby like this plus a toddler.

You're right; when DS's sleep has got better, it's rarely been down to anything I've done either.

Off to set the laptop up by my feeding chair now as the last nap attempt a couple of hours ago failed completely. It is quite relaxing having him napping on my lap, but I have a highchair and mess mat to clean as well as laundry and cooking to do...

Thanks for the hand tip, yankbabymum, I'll give that a go.

i just used to let mine nap in my bed.

i would feed to sleep (or, not quite to sleep) then leave them on the bed with a pile of pillows on each side.

eventually, i took the side off the cot and pushed it up against the bed, and i could then really, really gently push ds2 into the cot once he was in a very deep sleep

Good tip, thisisyesterday, I may well try that.

PDog, it may be another teeth related thing here - one top one is halfway through and the other won't be too far behind, I think.

Hi AngelDog, we seem to keep meeting on these sleep threads!

I don't know about the Pantley dance as I've not got that book. All I know was that this time last week I was at my wits end with a DD who wouldn't nap and whose bedtimes had gone to pot! and yet as I type this, DD is upstairs in her moses basket fast asleep (and I didn't need to feed her to sleep either ) for the second time today!

I decided I could not go on with the feeding to sleep and constant attempts to get dd into her basket once asleep (as she would often wake after 10 mins anyway) so I decided a couple of days ago to try putting her down when I know she should be tired. It's pointless waiting for her tired signs as I have found they come too late. So after 2 hours awake I've been taking her upstairs, changing nappy, little feed, cuddle and then in basket awake. She happily plays and gurgles for a while (up to 30 mins), then it turns into moaning, sometimes escalates to crying - at which point I go in and get really close and shush really loudly in her ear (last night she proceeded to then sneeze right in my face!!) and whilst doing this I hold her arms gently by her side as I have found that her flailing arms stop her from dropping off. On every occasion she has then started to glaze over and close her eyes. I can't beleive it - I don't want to jinx things by saying I have cracked it, but hopefully we are well on our way...

Don't know if any of that helps. My DD is 4 months so is at a different stage to your DS.

Now night wakings are another thing and these have gone right out the window. Was up 3 times last night - was previously down to only one waking...but I think it could be teething.

Hope you find a solution that works for you soon!

I feed to sleep on the bed too thisis. Drove myself bonkers trying to get my first to self settle before admitting defeat and going with his flow. He's nine now and has been an ace sleeper since about 10 mnths.

With subsequent babies I just fed right to sleep, knowing this time will soon be over and trying to enjoy it while it lasts.

Angeldog If you can master feeding lying down with them next to you on the bed it's much easier to slip away and get some free time. You don't have to shift them into the cot before they're fully asleep or sit there norks akimbo, for 20 mins!

I leave baby sleeping on a folded cot sheet on our bed, then come back 15 mins later and lift her, sheet and all, into the cot(nxt to our bed) when she's properly out.

Oh, she's 8 mnths now and although I completely gave up with putting any of my older ones down awake in their cots, all started to self settle at different times once they were ready. They are all really good sleepers now with no bedtime fusses, fears or nightmares.

It's the waking up at 5.30am which persisted into toddlerhood!

Just a word of warning....its one thing to rock to sleep a 6 mo but ask yourself if you would really be happy rocking to sleep a hefty one year old.

We have just accepted that our 14mo is never going to sleep well or sleep through the night unless he learns to self settle. If I could physically carry on rocking him I would but as he weighs over a stone and a half its just not possible.

I wish I could go back and go through the pain of teaching him to self settle before he learnt to stand up in his cot (even in his gro bag!). Its never going to be easy but with hindsight it would have been easier to have done this 6 months ago (before I was back at work) and perhaps now I would have had a few months of blissful sleep instead of being a zombie !

Myneaux, don't I know it - DS is already 22lbs! Our rocking chair is a wonderful thing. DH had a go at jiggling him when he was overtired a couple of weeks ago but had to give up as his arms were aching too much. On the positive side, I do have very toned arms.

babywrangler, that's a good tip about feeding to sleep on a sheet. I can indeed feed lying down so I might try that tomorrow. It's good to hear positive stories of babies getting the hang of things under their own steam. PDog, we can hope!

CurlyLJ - hooray; long may it continue!

ooooh clever idea there with the sheet!!!!

i also found that replacing me (ie, where i had been lying next to him) with my rolled up pyjamas helped. they smelled of me, and he could still feel that there was "something" beside him which seemed to help

I don't know how you feel about using a dummy but when I unlatch my DS he reacts the same way as your DS. When it's clear that he's still awake and wants to feed I pop him back on, but if he's sleepy and needs to comfort suck I give him his dummy. I still hold him as if I'm feeding him but with his dummy in. This helps him to stay asleep as I put him in his cot. It's not guaranteed to work every time but seems to smooth the transition.

Good luck

Sounds like a good idea, thisisyesterday. I've learnt so much from MN; I think an introduction to it should be an essential part of antenatal classes.

Comforting to know there is hope AngelDog. I think it might be teething related too as DD's bottom two look about to burst through.

Sheet sounds like a good idea. I have also fed in bed and then slipped away, leaving my pyjamas like thisisyesterday. At least then you can deal with the mess from the last BLW session and get ready for the next one . It does pass though, we had it about for about 2 weeks but now she will go in her cot once asleep.

We use (our interpretation of) the Pantley dance to get our DS down but have never been able to move it beyond putting him down when he's mostly asleep. And he still wakes straight up if we don't put him down in this way.

I'd say persistence was definitely key as when we started it would take 5/6 attempts but now it's usually the first go (hopefully writing this won't jinx that!!). Although having said that I can't be certain I'm not just holding him for longer before even trying to put him down!

What really helped us get it working was identifying where in the process DS would mostly wake up and then just trying loads of different things at those points to see what helped. For us there are three main danger points: when body contact is broken, when he touches the mattress and when I remove my hand from under his head.

To deal with the loss of body contact, I usually move him slightly away during the rocking part of the dance, and move him completely away (but still stay close) when he's very close to but not actually touching the mattress and make sure he's comfortable with that before moving on to the next step. When getting him on the mattress, I put him down bottom first instead of feet first, which he seems to notice less (perhaps because of his nappy?) and is easier for me given the way I hold him. When removing my arm, I use my other hand to support DS's neck from the other side and then dig down into the spongy mattress with the arm I'm removing so he hopefully doesn't notice the change.

He does sometimes stir/open his eyes/try to roll over/frantically rub his hand over the sheet but carrying on the song or some loud shushing along with patting him and/or jiggling the mattress gently often gets him back asleep without having to start the process again.

That was pretty hard to describe so I hope it makes some sense! If I could still feed him to sleep (he's too distracted by the world to do that anymore unless he's ill or absolutely shattered), I'd actually probably do as the other posters suggest. But at least the benefit of doing the dance means you aren't the only one who can get him down!

HTH

Hi Angel! I tried the dance and found it a bit unnatural. I've given up on getting DS to self settle for naps - bedtime and nights he's ok but naps are harder.

I nearly always feed before a nap. If I want to cot him, I either put him down 20 mins after he's fallen asleep (he'll be ina deep sleep then) or rock him then put down and pat his back (he naps on his front). If he stirs, I gently rock and put down again. If he gets upset, I'll just rock him so he's more drowsy/asleep.

If he's overtired he'll want to stay latched onto my boob for the whole nap so I try not to let that happen. Can't always win though!!

pinkscarf, thanks for that - it does make sense!

I've decided to go with the flow and just feed him, then wait till he's fallen properly asleep. I'm sure he'll improve again with time. My only concern is when I go back to work (fortunately only 1 day a week & just for a couple of months) and DH will be looking after him, but that's a few months off. DH even suggested that maybe we could manage without the extra money (which we can't) so he didn't have to face the nap thing.

Iggly, I'd not connected wanting to stay latched on with overtiredness, but that makes a lot of sense. I'd wondered why he was like that sometimes but not others.

Anyway, today was more random than ever. He was extra 'twitchy' on my lap for the first nap so I couldn't put him down; he woke after 30 mins, I rocked him and he went back off and slept for a total of TWO HOURS.

His next nap was only 20 mins in the car. His third nap was the usual 45 mins, but he fell asleep again feeding after I got him up.

Bedtime was a dream but he's woken up at least 5 times since.

I wouldn't worry about the naps when you go back to work. DH has looked after DS and he naps just fine in the cot He doesn't self settle, but DH can put him down.

Also watch what you're giving him at dinner. When I've given peas/lentils/most green veg it makes DS really windy and he would keep waking up in the night! So no veg at tea for him unless it's something like parsnip/swede etc.

Good tip, Iggly - he does get very windy in the night. He got in a bit of a state with it last night but I thought it was his teeth so dosed him up on ibuprofen. I thought he might on nursing strike as he refused to feed when he woke at midnight and again at 5am, but he's had a good feed since - phew..

He rolled from his back to his front for the first time this morning, so that's yet another developmental thing which may have een messing things up. It just doesn't stop!