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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

SN board and disability accessibility compromise

99 replies

amber32002 · 07/05/2009 07:38

Dear lovely Mumsnet leaders,

Please can you help?

On the SN support thread, we're trying to find ways in which we can warn people with an autism spectrum disability that a mum is about to rant about autism in what is to us perhaps a scary way that we're not able to cope with because of the disability. (which wires the brain directly into the panic centre). Not all people with an ASD react as uncontrollably to sudden fear as I do, but some do, and it's a problem for me if I can't care for my family because my brain has suddenly panicked and shut itself down, if you see what I mean? I want to join in because it's such a support for me, and I don't want to make a complete berk of myself by getting my brain overloaded and then coming out with things that end up not explaining or making it worse .

I don't think we want to stop mums from saying anything they need to about their feelings about each disability (well, as long as it's within the law, of course) - it's a support forum for SN parents after all. But I need to be able to stay safe on there whilst respecting their need to rant.

I suggested a WARNING line in the message subject, and maybe there could be a tiny bit of guidance from mumsnet to remind people that all they have to do is put that warning at the top? But I don't know if you have any better ideas? I want to be able to join in in a safe way, and I don't want to ruin the rights of others to express themselves.

Any ideas?

Thanks muchly
Amber (mum of an SN child, and I have Asperger syndrome)

OP posts:
morningpaper · 08/05/2009 11:06

Amber, don't feel that you haven't done a good job of explaining your position, because you have explained yourself just fine

But in terms of practical changes, I'm not sure what can be done.

How would you feel if the situation remained unchanged?

morningpaper · 08/05/2009 11:09

(I think that piece makes autism sound bad so that it makes the point that is sounds bad because we lack courage and decency. You know, it sort of sets up a errmmm wicker man? straw man? ermmm literary criticism was not really My Thing)

amber32002 · 08/05/2009 11:23

MrsT, that's why I'd asked if they could move the poem to somewhere where there was more scope for a general debate rather than it being in a support forum. I'd thought about what people said about the importance of the debate, and didn't want it removed and for people not to debate it at all It sometimes takes me a while to understand all the different points of view.

Morningpaper, I'm not sure. The trouble is, I know that I have to stay fairly 'level' for the work I do. I have a dh and ds with disabilities, and I have to be able to cope with the advice work I do and the business things too. A lot of people rely on me, and I rely on a lot of other people too. So I guess if we keep the same probability of me 'crashing out' (it's a bit like an epileptic fit in terms of the control I have over it - none), I'll have to admit defeat and stay only on the safest possible threads away from the SN bits. Or leave.

And if I did leave, I know that it is entirely irrelevant to mumsnet, but it isn't to me, so I'd still be

If we could try to stop even one future incident, that'd be one less thing to worry about? For me and for some others too? It wasn't just me that was at the poem, so I think it would help more than just me for us to have some guidance on it, yes.

OP posts:
morningpaper · 08/05/2009 11:25

OK Amber

thanks for putting your POV across and for listening to me banging on - it's very helpful that you took the time to explain

Graciefer · 08/05/2009 18:47

I read welcome to Holland when my sosn was diagnosed and it was a real help and comfort to me.

as for those who say crappy poems never helped anyone my eldest son is severley autistic and when my second son was born with Downs Syndrome it was a shock but when my husband said to me
'welcome back to Holland'
this is the single most impactfull line anyone has ever said to me, because I knew at that moment that everything would be just fine.
So for those of you who dis 'crappy poems' well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it but please don't try to stop opther from accessing them just because you dont like them!!

daisy5678 · 08/05/2009 21:16

I really didn?t want to come back to this but have been made aware of this idea of having to post warnings about negative posts about autism and just couldn?t stand back really. Also realise that I?d be ignoring a lot that people have taken the time to write, including Amber, so thought it would be rude not to respond.

First, thanks to those who have made an effort to understand what I am actually saying.

Amber I didn?t actually realise that you are the mum to an SN child. You?ve said before that he has dyslexia but I never knew that he had been diagnosed ASD too. My point was that you rarely post as a parent about your child, but usually as a person with SN. Your approach to the infamous poem was not a reaction as a parent, but as a person on the autistic spectrum. All I did was to point out that your perspective as a person with a disability rather than a parent with a child with a disability is very, very different, but this board is for parents with children with SN and, as such, will not necessarily make for nice reading with people with that disability. It is not primarily a support board for people with SN and, as such, its content is very different from a forum intended for that purpose.

That is not the same as saying that you shouldn?t come here, and it?s a shame that your friend from another part of the board was drafted in to the argument here to pretend that that was what I was saying. I?m just saying that, inevitably, parents will see disability differently from the person with the disability. I wouldn?t expect a parent of a child who had Aspergers to go onto a website for people with Aspergers and say, ?all this celebrating Aspergers makes me uncomfortable because my child is really making my life hard?. They?re different audiences and purposes. People need different things ? some like the Holland poem (I don?t, but Gracifer says that it really helped her, so who is to ban poems just because they don?t like them if they?ll help someone else?) and some like the Beirut and the Schmolland one (I do). So banning all poems sits as uncomfortably with me as banning anything else. One person?s crap is another person?s saviour.

You do seem to assume that my posts have only bad intentions. I say: you?re lucky as your life is good ? own business, marriage, child. You say: no, but being on the autistic spectrum is really hard and can be hell at times.
I say: autism is really hard. You say: no, but it?s good, really; don?t say it?s awful.
I can?t win. And no, it?s not about winning, but when you and other people seem to interpret my (polite, non-abusive) posts as being ?against? you, it is frustrating. I am not against you, but the point that you are making. However, note that I am not asking you not to post your viewpoint.

I do find it quite offensive to be lectured about the need to learn about disability when you said, on the site stuff thread: ?but it just would be so lovely to have new people who join the board given some clues about how to respect others with a disability on there. Surely most people would actually like to learn a bit about disability, rather than just seeing that line of gentle warning as some sort of censorship?. I think that we all know quite a lot about disability on the SN board and I don?t think I need clues about how to respect others with a disability. I have not been disrespectful to you and I can?t see that others have either. Not agreeing with the idea that the board should be censored to only suit people other than the group that it is primarily intended for is not being disrespectful of disability.

Your repeated references to the DDA and disability hate crime in reference to what it currently being said are also quite offensive to me as the implication, as I?ve said, is that discussing that poem or saying ?I hate autism? is akin to being anti-disabled and hating disabled people. I totally disagree and feel that saying ?I hate autism? (as people have done on this thread) is not the same as hating your child or people with autism. It?s hating the disability and its impact and people have to be allowed to do that. It?s reflecting their wish for their child to have an easier life, without autism. The ?My Name is Autism? poem personified autism and made it into a monster-type thing. It did not make people with autism out to be monsters or disgusting or any of the other things that you keep repeating?though of course, people don?t have the benefit of seeing the whole poem anymore to choose for themselves: they just get your edited bits or your version of what it said.

?"All autism is a terrible disease that destroys lives utterly. Its people are embarrassing and cause loathing and disgust in others" is what you ?quoted? from the My Name is Autism poem on the site stuff thread. That is not what it said and is your own perspective on it. It does not say that its people are embarrassing; it states that it causes embarrassment and many have come on here to say yes, it can. Other interpretations have been offered to you and you still cling to your own version of it. Please read what others have said about this poem, particularly saintlydamemrsturnip.

The DDA talks about reasonable adjustments. I don?t know if it is reasonable for parents of children with severe elements of autism to feel like their voice can?t be heard. I don?t think it is, but others may differ. You need to feel safe, but so do those who feel they need to voice their frustration and anger and sadness, if necessary. You keep saying ?oh, people can say that they are upset about their child, but can?t go beyond that because a) it?ll upset you and b) it?ll break the law.

You gave these two examples: "Arrghhh, I've had the day from HELL with my ASD child and I want to SCREAM and if social services send me one more Cr&pppy social worker I will need an entire bottle of gin!" Nothing wrong with that at all. Not a thing. Doesn't bother me in the least.

"All autism is a terrible disease that destroys lives utterly. Its people are embarrassing and cause loathing and disgust in others"

See the difference? I do, literally. My brain sees the pictures of those two things, as if they were plays on the tele. One is a picture of a very stressed out mum who needs a hug/cup of tea. The other is a sinister picture of horror.?

But the ?My Name is Autism? poem didn?t actually say the second thing and your ?guidelines? about what is OK and not OK to say about our children have two problems: 1) if we are told what we can and can?t say, we lose our freedom to say how we feel 2) sometimes people want to be able to say that they hate a disability without being told that that actually means that they hate disability and are committing a hate crime.

Very, very often, people on here say about their children?s disability (not their child), ?I hate epilepsy? or ?I hate CP??people have also said (but only in the last week) ?I hate autism??but Davros is right that that is taboo on here and being told to post warnings if subject matter may offend does not help parents to feel safe to say their feelings ? in fact, it forces them to label their own feelings as offensive! So while I understand your pleas to ?feel safe? on here, there is another perspective too: that parents need to feel that way too, which is no less valid for the fact that I (and others who agree with it) do not have SN.

Riven, for example, hates epilepsy for what it does to her child ? understandably. Many parents of children with autism have said on this thread that they hate autism ? understandably. That doesn?t mean that they hate you or any other person?you have to remember too that when this is said, it is said about a child, who is usually the most loved person in that parent?s life. I love my son more than anything, but I do hate autism at times. I do. I hate what it has done to his life as opposed to how his life would have been if he didn?t have it. Not all the time, but at times.

And I want to be able to say that and not be then misinterpreted as saying that I hate autistic people (and I want that right for others too). That is all.

MrsMuddle · 08/05/2009 22:14

That is a great post, Givemesleep. I've been thinking about this thread all day, and you've articulated my thoughts perfectly. Thank you, on behalf of lurkers on the SN board.

Graciefer · 08/05/2009 22:46

HERE HERE!!!

saintlydamemrsturnip · 08/05/2009 23:35

"One person?s crap is another person?s saviour."

This sums up what I have been trying to say for the last few days. None of us have the right to dictate what another person should think, or feel or be comforted by. I often share things that haven't been particularly useful to me because I think they might help others. And that has included 'crappy poems'. And people's thought's change. So people need different things at different times. No-one has the right to tell them they shouldn't feel angry, or schmalzy or sad or comforted by My Name is Autism or Holland.

I've never particularly identified with Holland but I always go misty eyed when Graceifer mentions her Welcome back to Holland line because it was so perfect for the occasion and just summed up everything that needed to be said at that moment. Also tbh the woman who wrote Holland wrote it about Down Syndrome, so its not entirely surprising it doesn't resonate 100% with me, that doesn't mean it's a 'crap poem'. And I do share it with people some times. Along with Beirut, Schmolland and good old Autism Every Day.

amber32002 · 09/05/2009 06:25

Givemesleep, I am just so confused - I haven't asked anyone not to say things about their children or not to rant, so I don't know what this is about. Nor have I ever said that anyone on any board is anti-disability. If I've written something that you thought meant that, I'm afraid that's me fouling up:

I'm on the autism spectrum, which means my communication skills and common sense are often lacking, and I need help sometimes to be able to get my point across and find the right things for me to say or do. It's really embarrassing for me to make mistakes, but I don't always know how my words will be interpreted and sometimes I need someone to help me.

I was trying to find a way to stay safe on there, and I appreciate that I have somehow fouled up by asking for a bit of help so I could do that. I've asked and asked and asked whether anyone has any better ideas so that I can respect the needs of the parents to say whatever they like, but still be ok myself. I was hoping that you'd have some ideas.

Somehow I've convinced you that I have all these wicked thoughts about parents and want them to have their freedoms curtailed.

I don't have enough theory of mind for that. I really like you, and everyone on there.

I wish with all my heart that I could undo the hurt I've clearly caused you, but honestly I just need some way to be able to avoid the threads that really cause me huge panic and shutdown.

As you know, my husband nearly died a couple of months ago, and I have been in a hell of a state since. The SN board has been a lifeline for me, it's kept me going in the same way that others have been kept going.

I respect you and the others needing to have your right to say whatever you like. I'll withdraw my request to be able to join in safely, because this is so upsetting for me to think that I've hurt people through not understanding enough. I'll also leave the SN board.

I really am so very sorry that I have upset you, Givemesleep

OP posts:
Robespierre · 09/05/2009 07:12

(I'm posting here because I'm unsure about posting in any of the threads on this issue that are in the SN topic: I don't like to gatecrash that topic because I don't have an SN child.)

I wonder if the fact that you are diagnosed with a communications disorder makes you perceive all difficult communication as being difficult because of your disorder. Because the fact is that you have articulated your concerns on this issue with perfect clarity; you have shown appropriate sensitivity to other posters; and you have made as good a guess at their reactions and emotional states as anyone can in online conversation.

It is just upsetting for everyone, not just those with ASD to be in an insensely felt disagreement. Even without any special needs. (And similarly it is upsetting even for NT people to see something like that poem that can seem like a horrible indictment of themselves.)

You haven't been insensitive to anyone, and no-one has accused you of any insensitivity. You have just disagreed, and you feel the stress of disagreement acutely, as I would.

So you haven't done anything awful at all. This is just mumsnet in action. It is very hard for all new posters to have an intensely felt disagreement, and to feel that they have the minority opinion. Disagreements here are more intensely felt than in the offline world because people are more truthful, more open.

amber32002 · 09/05/2009 07:13

And I'm so sorry that I've upset the other people here too. Truly. I had absolutely no idea that I was being so rude by phrasing it the way I did. I am utterly ashamed

OP posts:
Robespierre · 09/05/2009 07:23

Just to clarify a bit what I mean:

If it wasn't for you telling us about your communications disorder, I honestly wouldn't have known that you had one. You haven't displayed any lack of awareness, lack of empathy, you have put your case sensitively and articulatly. If it has been a difficult dispute, that has to do with the subject matter and with all the everyday dynamics of mumsnet.

So it doesn't indicate that you shouldn't be posting here!!

Knowing that you have a comm. disorder, you might be tempted to put all communications difficulty down to it. But communication is hard and often upsetting for everyone. That's why I talk online and stay buttoned up in the real world!!

amber32002 · 09/05/2009 07:38

But these people are my friends, well, they are to me, and I've hurt them and I can't bear it. It's just awful

OP posts:
ShannaraTiger · 09/05/2009 08:18

amber32002 I thought you put your opinion across very well and didn't sound offensive at all.
I would like to say more but my epilepsy is not good at the moment and I can't think very straight at all.

MaryBS · 09/05/2009 08:25

x-posted this in SN as well:

Amber, like me, has Asperger's, and we post on SN because we empathise with others who have Asperger's, whether they are adults or children, and we want to help parents of children too.

Amber is better at vocalising how she feels than me, but she also exposes herself more to being hurt. So while she is helping others she is not helping herself.

I don't think she should stop posting in SN because she HAS helped so many others. But there is a cost to herself to do this, and I think this is one of those times.

I understand what she is feeling at the moment, and she feels the whole world is crashing down on her head (not a good image for an Aspie!). If I felt like that, I would not be in a position to understand the disagreements/explanations that are going on, I would only see hurt and anger and hatred towards me. It's a bloody awful place to be in.

I'm not saying that you should see that right or justified, or even logical, but it is the nature of my disability, and I suspect Amber is like that too. I know I can't speak for her definitely, but as we are so alike, I suspect that is what is going on.

I hope and pray with a bit of space, she'll be able to come back. I'd understand if she didn't. We chat offline. But if I can help anyone understand, please CAT me.

(and sorry if I've put it badly)

saintlydamemrsturnip · 09/05/2009 10:01

Amber of course you shouldn't go. I'm sorry you're upset. I'm not really - as said above I disagree - but I have no investment In my name is autism- so an not upset- just think your solution is unworkable and put too much pressure on others to work out what could potentially be upsetting for someone. As an example when ds1 was a preschooler I found conversations about children talking and having x number if words very upsetting. But that was my issues and would have not been reasonable to expect others to curb their delight at their child's speech (especially if their child had sn) in front of me.

I think your posts must be incredibly helpful for parents of children with AS. The most useful book I've read was Lucy blackman's because she is very like ds1. But I wouldn't expect her book to be of much interest to the parent of a child with AS as it's not really going to teach them anything about their child. So yes of course you should keep posting, but also remember that some of the stuff shared about autism is not going to make sense to you because people are talking about a condition which shares a name but not much else with your particular experience.

2shoes · 09/05/2009 10:11

amber please don't even consider leaving.
I find your insight into sn very usefull, It helps me a lot.
the sn topic is for everyone who needs to post, and the only people who can say who should not post is mn hq so please carry on posting and if you ever need help or a chat off board you have my email address.

daisy5678 · 09/05/2009 11:01

If it helps, I certainly don't hate you, not at all, and I'm sad (albeit) frustrated that my posts are upsetting you. They're not intended to. I'm trying to explain, as logically and unemotively as I can, my point of view because I am trying to help you to understand it.

I have expressed no desire for you to leave. I have said on numerous occasions that your posts have helped other people and I would not ever seek to limit something or someone who does that.

You aren't hurting me. The situation is upsetting and frustrating me, but that's not all about you.

morningpaper · 09/05/2009 11:04

I appreciate that I have somehow fouled up by asking for a bit of help

Not at all, Amber, I don't think anyone sees it like that. I don't see any evidence that you have hurt people, although some people may feel frustrated that their own point of view is not being heard enough. I think this has been a really useful discussion: you have put your view forward, it has been listened to and appreciated and understood a little more. We may not be able to think of a practical solution or even see the matter in the same way, but airing our own view is so important for moving forward and growing as people (and as a board). You have nothing at all to be ashamed of and have done nothing wrong. Please don't let this worry you - you have come across as being thoughtful and considerate and have put your own view across gently and clearly. We may not all draw the same conclusions from these sorts of discussions but that's a positive part of the experience.

MaryBS · 09/05/2009 11:06

givemesleep, mrsturnip and 2shoes, I think that is helpful.

justaboutspringtime · 09/05/2009 14:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

amber32002 · 11/05/2009 06:43

I'm not sure if mumsnet have had any more ideas?

I've tried to set up a single thread on SN as a safer space for me so I can mostly just be in there, and a couple of board users have been lovely and said they'll try to help me to know which threads are Amber's-type-of-disability-friendly and which ones aren't. I'm not sure it'll work, but I'm trying to do everything I can to find answers for people, which isn't easy when I can't guess what others need very well.

Trouble is, it's a little bit like asking a person who's nearly blind to identify where the really big hazards are in a room and mark them out for themselves. If they could see them already, they wouldn't be the really big hazards.

Another friend of mine (who was helping look after me during the worst bit of this) said would it be possible to have a different bit/area/something in SN for rants and general debates, and one for a general mums-giving-each-other-handy-hints-for-sn-survival and general chat?

Please please remember I can't manage to guess what people's reactions to suggestions are, so please don't get or if I've suggested anything you don't like. It isn't deliberate. Please try to help me understand why it's a bad idea.

I know it has to work for everyone, but it's an idea, given that a few of the mums have now said they might value a quiet space because they too find it really hard to join in sometimes as they're not sure they can cope with all of it, and a few have said they need a space where they can debate whatever needs debating without worrying about it?

How difficult or expensive is it to subdivide a board in some way? If people generally like it as an idea, but there isn't any money, can I help with the costs if it's a cost issue?

Would that work? Otherwise I'll try to stay just on the one thread on there and only go to where I'm told if it helps others to feel they don't have to worry about me overhearing what they say, and it helps me to avoid the very very controversial debates (not the rants from the parents -I never did mind those)?

PS how does someone speak on behalf of the lurkers, which I think is what someone said earlier here? How do they know who's lurking and ask them all? Is there a something on mumsnet I've missed that shows who's lurking? There is on another board elsewhere, so thought I'd ask?

OP posts:
daisy5678 · 11/05/2009 21:52

Have posted this on the several threads that have been started about this

I kind of thought that this had settled now, what with the tearoom thread and whatever; it's a shame that the comment about there being 'no appetite for changes' was made to Amber by MN and taken, understandably, by Amber to mean that there was no appetite to help her. I'm assuming that MN perhaps meant that there was no appetite for a change to the board (which is not necessarily true for all, but a reasonable assumption for MN to make when people like me have argued so vociferously for everyone's right to say what they need to say.)

I think a change into two quite abstract types of SN boards would be difficult. Who knows when a question thread will turn into a rant? Who knows when a rant will contain a question? Who know whether a cross/sad thread will have a happy ending or vice versa? Also, many posters (including me) would not be very happy to have to post anything negative in a rant/ controversial thread, as though it was something dirty to be ashamed of.

However, that's not the same as me saying that Amber shouldn't be allowed on here, and that I want her to be excluded. I've never said that I want that, and those who've said that I did either chose to misinterpret or didn't understand what I posted.

I don't see why the tearoom thread can't be kept for the happy chilled type of posts, like a chill out zone or safespace. Don't really see that that needs a separate board - seems to be working for people so far. As for the 'controversial posts'...well, Amber has said that she doesn't mind parents ranting (so that probably doesn't need a separate board) and that she's going to think carefully before opening up threads that look like they might be upsetting, so I think this is more about Amber feeling that people want her here (hence being upset by MN's post) than about what is done to change things.

If there are so many people willing to flag up any posts that they think might upset here, then the combination of the 'safe' thread, careful choosing of topics and flagging up by friends should help, shouldn't it?

This whole thing wasn't over disablist posts or anything like the superrace threads, so is a poor comparison, IMO. It's also not about refusing accessibility, but balancing up rights and needs of everyone.

I also think that the point that many people have made about arguments and disagreements being upsetting for everyone, NT or otherwise, is very true. We all get upset and angry when we feel ignored or that someone else is wrong in what they've said and done. I think that, particularly on the SN board, we're generally very tolerant with each other and try to understand that everyone here is under pressure in RL and don't need extra here...but a talk forum inevitably contains disagreements and strong feelings; that is intrinsic to iits nature, and I don't think you can moderate for that without taking away its honesty and its openness.

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