Are public spaces getting more or less child-friendly?

[GeraldineMumsnet]

BBC radio Leeds have been in touch about a story that's already been discusssed on MN here. Has anyone had similar experiences anywhere else? Do you reckon we're getting more or less tolerant as a society about children in places like cafes? Thanks for your help

I don't think society is getting less tolerant - but buggies are certainly getting bigger and bigger and this can be a problem when some mums just don't think when they go into some restaurants/cafes

We went for lunch in a local chinese buffet the other week and recieved 2nd rate service because we had children.
We didn't take a pushchair in with us as they have been rude about it in the past, so carried dd4 in a car seat and carried dd3.
We spent a fair amount in their resturant (4 adult meals,3 childrens meals and at least 7 drinks) yet we were made to feel as though we were taking up valuable space! When dd3 (16m) dropped rice on the floor, the waitress started tutting even though i offered to clear it up!
Needless to say we wont take our hard earned cash there again.

back when dd1 (15) was small, it was common practice to NOT take prams and pushchairs in a lot of public places, cafes, pubs, etc.

Nowadays everyone seems to take their HUUUUUUUGE pushchairs everywhere with them.

it's partly down to public transport becoming more pushchair friendly I suppose, but people expect to be able to take their prams everywhere they want to.

Some places are just NOT pushchair friendly though and there does seem to be a stand-off between bolshy mums who expect to be made welcome with their seven seat buggy and bolshy waiting staff who expect the only people to come through their doors to be able to spend their own earned money (iykwim)

Parks though - you should deffo be able to take a pram/pushchair to a farking park fgs!

Restrictions on buggies, etc, reflect practicalities -- or imagined practicalities. They don't indicate any hostility to small children.

But public spaces are much less welcoming than they should be to older children, who are routinely regarded as a problem or a threat.

In our shopping centre DS1 at age 12 once refused to put up the hood of his sweatshirt because he was afraid of 'looking like a hoodie' and being regarded with suspicion. And on at least one occasion he and his friends have been 'moved on' by an older person for no apparent reason.

We are very vocal in our protection and nurture of our tiny children. We have a massive sense of entitlement on their behalf. But perhaps we are much more quiet than we should be when it comes to defending our teenage and near-teen children from an increasingly grudging society.

oooh, good point threadie!

We have some shops in our local town that have a policy of having no more than three school children in at any one time.

I have gone in with dd1 (15) before now and been told I may not bring her in the shop! She was with her farking mother fgs! Needless to say I didn't shop there after all...

I think it depends on the demographics of an area. The cafes near us are very child friendly - room for buggies, plenty of high chairs, changing facilities etc. But the cafe owners aren't doing it to be nice - they just want our custom. So I guess in an area where there are plenty of childless customers you are going to get people like the Roundhay guy - shortsighted but inevitable.

I've mostly had good experiences, but the Portrait Gallery in London is one of the least buggy friendly places I have ever been in my life! Loads of stairs - you have to take three different lifts to get from the first floor to the cafe in the basement, and then they wouldn't let some of us sit down while the others queued to purchase food, and since we had a baby who needed to eat NOW with us that effectively excluded us from the cafe (which wasn't even half full - I wonder why?)

I think shops are mostly very un-child-friendly especially in terms of navigating around them. The displays are put out with no regard for non-walkers - if I have DD2 in her Maclaren Major (SN pushchair) I find it really hard to move around a store without knocking into displays, baskets, racks and mannequins. It's even worse if I need to take the double pushchair! Wheelchair users must find it just as difficult.

I think society generally sends very mixed messages to children - children are not valued or respected, but then are demonised for behaving in a disrespectful way. Surely if we don't show our children respect then we can't expect them to respect others?

I also hate shops with those "no more than three school children" signs. I hate rules which are made for the lowest common denominator, when most kids are basically decent and wouldn't dream of pocketing a chocolate bar without paying for it.

I think that society is more tolerant of small children and less of older children/teens.

I have no problems with pushchairs having to be left outside/in a defined area as they do take up a huge amount of space in cafe areas- but as a sling user I might be accused of saying that as it's not a problem for me. But I'm more concerned that people carrying hot food and drinks, or wheelchair users/mobility impaired people have clear access to get through without having to jink round prams, or lift trays over peoples heads

An area that is pushchair friendly (ie out of the way of others) may certainly be appreciated, and if one were looking to increase the number of people with small children coming in, a good idea. But certainly, I have sympathy for the cafe owner as when I had a meeting in a Starbucks recently, I noticed a group of mums who took up a huge amount of space in the cafe (prams parked in cafe blocking off access to tables effectively) who made one drink last 2 1/2 hours - not terribly cost effective for the owner.

I find art galleries and museums are being increasingly child-friendly, setting up corners with children's books/dressing up outfits/colouring in.

I do think it's a buggy thing rather than a children thing. With DD in a carrier everywhere seems very friendly. But perhaps I'm just oblivious... Buggies do seem to be a lot bigger now than they used to be.

I think Threadworm's point is a good one, though -- teenagers and older pre-teens get demonised and are the group who really don't seem to be welcome anywhere.

I don't think this neccessarily shows an intolerance of children, it's just that buggies and prams are getting bigger. In my buggy days, tt was sometimes inconvenient to have to fold up a buggy but I was so used to having to do it on buses etc that it wpouldn't have stopped me visiting an area with no space for a buugy - depended on my need for a cuppa and a sit down

What I have noticed is an intolerance in general in open spaces. There are so few places where children can run around and let off some steam these days without people glaring because they can be seen and heard! I'm not talking about children behaving badly, just existing.

Problem is - the more children are pushed into only using "child-friendly" areas i.e. soft play / McDonalds etc. the less they will know how to behave in a decent cafe or restaurant so it's a vicious circle.

Mind you i'm a bit odd because i don't like to go to a "nice" restaurant and be offered colouring books, crayons and a paper menu with puzzles on for my two. Not sure why this irritates me but it does.

When I was a child you were chastised for speaking even in a whisper in libraries. Nowadays children are actively encouraged to enjoy books and make as much noise as they like.

Thanks to everyone who has posted - v helpful [and interesting]

I think that most restaurants are very tolerant of children. I guess it depends on the type of restaurant. You would expect a cafe in a park, museum or shopping centre to encourage people with children, whereas people going out to a posh restaurant at night might not want to be disturbed by screaming babies. Most restaurants I have been to with my DS's have been great, I mainly go to places like Wagamama, Pizza Express, Giraffe etc with my DS's as I know they will be suitable. However, I can understand why some restaurant do not like too many children there. I recently went out for lunch with friends and their children were really noisy, climbing on their chairs, running round the table etc. My friends thought it was great that they were having a great time, but I think that children have to understand that sometimes you do have to sit quietly and behave. When my DS was a baby, if we were in a restaurant and he started screaming, my DH and myself would take it in turns to take him outside so that people would not be disturbed. However, not everyone thinks this way, and feel that other people should just tolerate their screaming children.

So, I think that most places are more child friendly than they used to be, but that more parents are taking their children out to restaurants than they used to.

I def agree that shops are terrible for getting pushchairs around (and I usually sling dd and have ds in a McLaren so it is hardly huge). I think much of it is lack of thought on both parts. As parents we should not expect to be able to take a pushchair everywhere, it is not a right but cafes etc also need to think about their customers. If you don't want/have space for them inside then you need ot have somewhere to put them instead of flapping and looking worried any time someone dares to bring one in. Shops also need ot think about layout, most memorable one I went to was a charity shop over 2 stories with no lift which put the baby clothes upstairs!

I live in Durham, it is an old city and can be a royal pain in the arse for pushchairs as a lot of shops are in old buildings, over 2 stories etc and I do find it frustrating at times but that is just the nature of where I live. However, I have also had great service. If you are nice about it then staff are often happy to get something from the other floor for you, afterall if there is something that you need so badly that you can't wait until the weekend when you can offload the children and go without a buggy then you probably know what it is. I have my fave cafes etc to go to, others I reserve for when I don't have a toddler with me.

I'm with Fimbo on libraries being far more child friendly than before. My library has a very noisy weekly story time for kids and often has other craft activities etc for children. They have a separate room for quiet work and reading.

CMP brings up the point of nice restaurants, child friendly places etc. I think that we seem to expect everywhere to pander to our children when really we should be teaching our children how to behave in restaurants etc or accept that part of having children is that you don't do certain things for a while. I love that my regular cafe is happy for ds to run about a bit but I would never let him do that in a restaurant and I never let him race around/be so load as to irritate other customers, part of having a toddler is accepting that a pit stop in a cafe is not about catching up with friends over cake but 10 mins for your toddler to swallow his snack and refuel, if you want to be a lady what lunches don't bring the children!

I think all you have to do is try and find a public loo with nappy-changing facilities in France or Spain to appreciate that we do some aspects of family-friendly better than many other countries.
One generalised benefit of DDA legislation is that a lot of public spaces that have had to be made wheelchair-accessible are now also buggy-accessible.