can we all conclude that discussion of the middle east is not good for the health of MUMSNET

[SeymourButz]

think Gina ford and rockets

and now THIS!

The saddest thing about the whole situation for me personally is that I can remember watching news reports about the situation in that area as a small child in the 1960's and 40 years on seems like things are as bad as ever....

From the BBC, new Obama appointemnts:

'George Mitchell, who negotiated an end to Northern Ireland's Troubles, has been charged with moving the Middle East peace process forward.'

I don't knoe much about him or the implication of this appointment, can anyone enlightenment me? Even if in a small way?

Also some other interesting comments on there from hamas, about Obama. Not very encouraging.

Or relevant apparently .

lol Nantucket, no, just that I don't think there is any point taking sides. I can see how it is possible to have sympathy for both and be desparing of the situatuation, for both too. But anyone who thinks the Israelis are monstrous just doesn't apreciate the monstrousness of war. That's what war is. It's what all war in on every side. It's naive to think otherwise. That's just my opinion. Too obscene for some it would seem.

I think there's a catastrophy going on in Gaza and Israel. It's so monstrous thast the last thing either side need are justifications to carry on. That will demand impartial intervention. It's not rocket science.

I really don't know what you are on about otherwise. I've never told anyone to 'shut up'. You seem to be confusing me with someone else.

I've never suggested you say 'shut up'MT, just that you keep appearing to tell us how useless the debate is. That seems rather pointless in itself.

So in no war is there ever a more 'just' side? A side which suffers more but never gets it's cause recognised and it's issued addressed?

You seem to be suggesting that the suffering on both sides is equal, and really that was the nub of the lengthy debate, a view which particuarly given recent events in Gaza, but for much longet than that imo, really seems an untenable position to take. Obviously others disagree, hence the debate.

But look! your expalnation and my response has led us right to the deabte you feel is futile.

To not have an opinion on events you know something(anything) about is rather impossible for the human psyche. deabate helps people to learn more than they knew and often alters opinion, maybe in small unmeasurable ways.

I disagree with your assertion that there is a castastrophy going on in Gaza and Israel. I don't see Israel's position as a catastrophy, I ses the Palestinians situation as an ongoing catastrpohy that affects Israel but which they have the power to sort out. Others see it differently.

But this is just taking up the debate where it was on the other threads, so even your assertion that all is equal and deosn't require support for any oppressed side leads to the same debate.

I guess if you believe, as you seem to, that all is equal in the responsibility and suffering then it may seem like apointless debate, but many don't see it like that.

In what situation will you speak out for people you beleive to be oppressed? I still don't get it. Do you not believe the Palestininas are oppressed, or do you not beive it's worth talking about even if they are?

And does impartial intervention ever exist? and even if it may be seen 'not to favour' one side many feel any intervention must understand and recognise the greivances of each side and make a judhement on fairness from that.

That's what the debate is, discussion about where the greievances lie and what would be fair based on the history and current situation of each party. and of course there are many differing oinions on this.

I agreeif yuy thnk all is equal, then 'taking sides' is pointless, but f you feel HUGE injustices are gung unrecognised decade aftre decade, you may feel a need to speak out for them.

Suh a with apartheid which you conceniently keep ignoring. there are many paralells.

BTW don't think anyone thinks Israelis are montrous (not on these threads anyway) just some of thier actions, as many Palestinian actions have been monstrous.

Indeed war is monstrous.

The debate is not really about that, its about the underlying greivances that cause the conflict and manitain the monstrocities.

The bombing of Dresden was monstrous as was the blitz in London, but in most peoples opinions one side had more responsibilty for that war, and committed more atrocites. Or was that war all eqaul too and wouldn't have been worth discussing or standing up to the Nazis?

It's not as simple as all war is bad,which is obviosly true, but not all sideas,armies, nations are equally as culpable in a war.

That is many poeple perceptions abot this conflict.