We need your thoughts on late potty training

[rachel(mumsnet)]

BBC Radio Newcastle have asked us for our thoughts on This article featured today in The Mail. It claims that the average age of potty training is now three - four yrs and argues that there are big risks - both health-wise and psychologically in leaving it so late. There is also the question of why - are the nappy manufacturers to blame for creating more and more 'toddler-sized' nappies?

Other question put to us are:

What do mums think is an ideal age to get a baby out of nappies, or will it be a decision that varies with each child?

Do mums feel social pressure from others in their peer group or their own parents to get their kids out of nappies?

Any tips for getting kids out of nappies?

Many thanks in advance for your input.
MNHQ

And hep A outbreaks go hand in hand with primary schools, I don't see what nappies have to do with it! Nurseries don't have lots of hep A outbreaks because of nappies!!
Far more likely that it's to do with small children not washing hands.

Grrrr.

Whomovedmychocolate, I'll bet there will be MILs up and down the land as we speak berating DILs for not potty training at 18 months......

I offered my DD and DS the choice of nappy or pants once they got to the stage when I thought they might be ready. They were both 3 when they finally chose they had one accident each and that was it. Much less stressful for all of us - and avoided all the carpet cleaning and clothes washing. Both my DS and DD had vastly superior bladder control to friends who had been trained much earlier. In fact at playschool DS got very upset because they kept insisting on taking him to the toilet just in case he needed to go because they couldn't believe he could go a whole morning without needing to! Neither of them have ever had a bladder infection.

I am absolutely livid at the Daily Mail article. It completely overlooks the possibility that some sort of special needs rather than supposed bad parenting are very likely to be involved if school age kids are still in nappies.

1. decision varies from child to child.

1. more social pressure from family than peers.

How on earth did they get from one person saying that they had once heard about (ie didn't even know them) a family with a 7yr-old in a nappy to "with increasing numbers of children as old as seven going to school wearing nappies"?

There is no mention in the article that the reason it was made illegal for nurseries to exclude children who aren't toilet-trained was because children with SN were being denied access to pre-schools for something they had no control over.

Children are ready at different times. Ds1 and ds2 were both 4yrs old when they were finally toilet-trained in the daytime. They both have ASD. Dd is 2yrs old and should hopefully be dry in the daytime when she starts pre-school in a few months time.

Despite being in nappies until 4yrs old and still not dry at night, neither of my boys has ever had any urine infections.

Well this is kind of related - we are actually having problems finding nappies to fit our DS. He is 22 months, size 6 and around 35lbs. Lots of stores are not doing size 6 nappies anymore so it is getting increasingly difficult to find them. If he isnt potty trained soon I dont know what we will put him in as there is no such thing as size 7.

Actually am going to start a thread about this.

not getting into the whys and wherefores on this thread

but

why were we all trained at 12 months and nowadys it is nearer 3??

a thought

My daughter was showing all the classic "signs" of being ready for potty training at about 18mths but she def wasnt ready, she was doing okay but then had a tummy bug and that was it.
She was trained before the age of 2, but only because she ASKED to go to toilet in the car and held it in until we got home, so we decided to train.
I dont think it was anything special I did, and she is probably against the norm. She's now 2.8 and we haven't trained at night, mostly dry in the morning but drinks a lot of juice at night, so not ready yet. I am not fussed though, she'll be out of them when she is ready
When I have another child, it will be hard not to compare, but will take it on their schedule, it has worked with DD.

oh and apparently I was dry at night by 18 nmonths and ds is almost 6 and still in nightnappies, so wahat eh?

What a daft article. I just don't believe that the nation's primary schools are full of children in nappies (and i notice the article didn't offer any quantification, or indeed evidence).

But yes, I'm probably defensive because I'm part of the problem. I didn't try training my PFB till she was over 2 (because there was lots of life disruption going on before, and i wanted to 'get it right'). It has now become the focus for her independence struggles (she absolutely refuses to use the potty, though she is clearly able to do so). I have decided not to join her on the field of battle, so have backed off, though will have to revisit this soon as she is due to start pre-school.

Yes, I would probably tackle this with more energy if I was boiling up buckets of terry nappies every day. But I'm sure we'll get there by the time she's 3, or not long after. And i really don't believe that she is spreading infection to all other children in her path! Seems to me that potty-trained children who are not scrupulous about washing their hands (probably most of them) are just as much a risk.

There is also the question of why - are the nappy manufacturers to blame for creating more and more 'toddler-sized' nappies?

No.Not IMO. All of mine have been in reusables so disposable manufacturers didn't have any effect at all. Both dds were oer 3 when reliably out of nappies. I tried at 2.5 due almost solely to peer pressure and failed spectacularly as they just were not ready

What do mums think is an ideal age to get a baby out of nappies, or will it be a decision that varies with each child?

Varies for each child.

Do mums feel social pressure from others in their peer group or their own parents to get their kids out of nappies?

Yes, see post above re the dds who were pre anti discrimination legislation and would hae been refused nursery places if I had needed/wanted them to go before 3.5

Any tips for getting kids out of nappies?

No
DS is 2.4, I do know lots of under twos who are totally trained, but am not bowing to outside pressures this time, and will be waiting until he is ready. I am confident that will be before he start school though

I do think earlier training in the past was more to do with lack of washing facilities, and available support in the form of extended families than anything else. Using reusable nappies means that mine were/are aware of being wet and this did not make them faster to train at all.

Oh, and there is social pressure. I am so fed up with other women (neighbours, strangers in public toilets etc) quizzing me loudly about why a big girl like dd (she is very tall, and looks much older than 2.8) is still in nappies. In front of her. So that helps.

DD decided to start using a potty herself at 19 months old. There was no issues or many accidents because she wanted to do it. She started walking at 9 months so I suppose she has just progressed quicker generally.

DS however, at 3 yrs and 2 mths is showing no signs of wanting to use the toilet. He has done occasionally when we are having bathtime, but, tbh it seems like a long way off with him. He lies about having done a poo in his nappy and it's a battle to change his nappy as it is. I can do with one less battle with him quite frankly.

I'm getting pressure from everywhere atm about potty training him. Even DH is saying he should be doing it now. Since I'm the one who spends more time with him (with exception of the ILs who care for him whilst I work part time), I feel as though it is my call as to how to deal with it - since I'll be the one mopping up after DS. Knowing DS - he'll only do it when he's good and ready and even then, he'll likely forget to go regularly.

I am a little disappointed and cannot believe that no more than 4 DM-readers have commented on this very important article. I normally love the DM comments-section. Last week it was breasfed 8 year-olds taking over the world and this week its 7 year-olds still in nappies. Todays parents, eh?

Re: pressure question - potty training is actually the only development milestone I haven't felt pressured about - mainly because I now feel confident enough to know my own daughter and will instinctively realise when she's ready to be potty trained - rather than be pushed into it by some other (DM reading) mother at playgroup who raises her eyebrows at the fact DD is still in nappies.

My 2nd was nearly 3. My 1st child was just over 2 so had assumed that was "normal" . So, yes, did feel slightly under pressure and a little embarrassed that my 2nd one took her time so much. I don't t hink there is an ideal age; it's when it happens without making it into an isshoo.

Chocolate as an incentive worked for us. It took a few days before she made the connection but, oh boy, when she did she managed to squeeze out a drop every 5 minutes.

An average age of 3 or 4? An average age of ... a nearly two-year age span? They're not even trying to be scientifically convincing. Ugh.

Anyway, that aside ...

Why? Convenience, ease, one way or another. Which isn't to say it's all about keeping a child in nappies because you're too lazy to potty train them. I mean that a generation ago it was worth the inconvenience of rigidly TRAINING a child (not the more learning-based approach we tend to adopt now), carrying a potty, dashing to loos, dealing with accidents, because the alternative was carrying on using and washing old-style cloth nappies, or the earliest, rather rubbish disposables. Now the nappies are easier, whether disposable or cloth, it's less worth the stresses of earlier potty training.

Ideal age - has got to vary. Developmentally though, I said there was no way I was even trying to get my DD out of nappies before she was communicating well.

Social pressure - nothing explicit. I felt a few stirrings of concern about DD's closest peers being out of nappies before her, but no one (including my parents and in-laws) said anything negative. She was out of nappies in the day at 2.6 in the end, with next to no bother, so not really much time for pressure to build up.

Tips? Couldn't possibly, having only got one singular child out of nappies! Stickers seemed to help (Potty Book for Girls, still keep finding pink star-shaped stickers about the place) and one particular pair of Sleeping Beauty pants that's still squeezing her 4yo bottom into, nearly 2 years later.

I think, like most things, potty training is a mixture of nature and nurture and any one who tries to say it is one or the other is showing a complete lack of common sense (like the DM usually does). My experience is that DS1 was trained just before he was two, I never planned to train him that early but he got chicken pox (V. spotty bottom) and it was the summer so I took the nappies off and hovered with a potty, it is the only thing he has been "advanced" and as he was PFB I am afraid I probably did go on about it a bit. One thing to say is that i was using washable nappies and I have heard that children potty train (on average) earlier with washables because they are more aware of the sensation of wetness in cloth nappies, although it could be that the parents are more desperate to train them due to being fed up of the nappy bucket! DS2 took longer to train (he was 3 before reliable) but he is on autistic spectrum so that is a nature problem. DS3 was the same as DS1 and they were all dry at night only a couple of months after daytime reliability. I think I have been lucky as my nephew is not dry at night at 6 but neither was his mum so nature again. IMHO grannies have selective memories about this sort of thing and also did not go out and about with small children as much as we do. Also, although I don't remember anyone in nappies in infants I do remember a couple of kids whose nicknames were "smelly".

Two things,

1. there is, for most children a long period (for my ds 2.5-3) when they can "almost" do it. Do you keep them in nappies during this time or do you consider them trained and deal with the accidents. When you had to wash everything by hand, my guess is that the second option would be the preferred one. Now with disposibles (and washing machines) it is less clear. Hence we have more children in nappies well into their third year
2. I think there is an issue around poo. I don't quite understand it but feel that leaving it too late (or not having lots of nappy off time) does create weird issues. Some like the feel of sitting in it, some get really scared and only want to do it in certain safe places like their cot or behind the sofa

my 5th child will be 4 in september and is still in nappies. my first child came out of nappies during the day at 2 and nighr at 2.5.
All children are different and I donr believe there is a right or wrong age. I can honestly say I havent trained my children just encouraged

Ideal age varies from child to child.

Potty trained ds1 at the age of 3 (a week after his birthday) because he wasn't ready before then. Cracked it in a week with only one accident.

Why struggle on for months and months when your child isn't ready? It's not a competition.

I potty trained my children as soon as they turned 2 and it took a couple of months.
I think by that age they had speech and the bladder control to do it.
I feel uncomfortable about 4 yr olds in nappies.

Oh yes - forgot to make that point. Thanks for reminding me mmj!

Daily Mail is a load of crap.

My mum was actually talking to me about this article in the car this morning, in a kind of don't you think it ias time dd (2.5) was trained. The other side of the discussion being that she didn't really want her round at there house in knickers unless she has got the hang of it.
I think mothers now have much busier schedules and so there is a lot less time spent at home with toddlers, it is very difficult to train a toddler when you do not have time at home.
As for the children at school, I find this very diffucult to believe unless there are sn.
DM doing some lovely judging once more.