Mumsnet census

[Ddakji]

Question 2 - What’s your sex?

Male
Female
Intersex
Prefer not to say

Come on @mnhq! Haven’t you read any of the hundreds of threads on FWR? Intersex is not a third sex - there is no third sex!!

Really disappointing to see this ideological, unscientific, false line of questioning.

However, Question 3 is much better phrased.

there is a very small minority of people who are biologically difficult to categorise.

Who told you that MN, and why did you listen?

Every single person in the UK has a sex, babies in this country are only ever registered as male or female. Intersex is not an option, so every single person in this country can answer the question 'what is your sex?' with either male or female (or prefer not to say).

The term intersex is outdated and offensive. People with a DSD are still either male or female.

Thank you for stating your reasons. I would be inclined to have male, female and prefer not to say as the categories. Intersex is a really odd option to offer for the reasons stated by everyone else!

Thanks for replying, Becky. As others have said, this reasoning simply doesn’t stand up.

May I enquire who MN used as an adviser in creating this survey?

This just isn't true. And plenty of people have given you evidence that this is offensive to people who actually have DSDs and don't want to be othered.

I will not be competing the census if it's not changed. It's shameful that you've done this.

You do realise that everyone with a dsd knows what seex they are and noone is "biologically difficult to categories" they are simply 1 sex of the other and you are being extremely offensive to them. People with dsd find the term intersex itself offensive.
You really need to do much better on this. Please contact some dsd charities for advice.

While we understand that intersex is not a third sex, we felt it was important not to exclude that category when gathering relevant data.

You felt it was important not to exclude what category?

Another category apart from but related to male and female i.e. a category of sex? So a category that does not exist?

I'm certainly not taking part in a census which is so scientifically and logically garbled. What would be the point?

While we understand that intersex is not a third sex, we felt it was important not to exclude that category when gathering relevant data

What relevant data? This is bizarre. So say some people tick the 'intersex' box, what could MN offer these people that is special or specific to people who do not exist?

@BeckyAMumsnet “that category”… which category? As has been explained, all people with a DSD or “intersex” as you’ve called it, are either male or female, however “difficult” it may have been to determine their sex at birth, they are, and have always been, either male or female… so which category, outside of that, do you refer to?

@BeckyAMumsnet, I’m coming back on to say you really do need to step up and make a change to this.

Using the term “intersex” to refer to people with DSDs is akin to using the term “mongol” to refer to people with Downs Syndrome, or the term “spastic” to refer to people with Cerebral Palsy. All once acceptable, now completely unacceptable. You say you have taken advice on how to word your census, however it is incumbent on you to do your due diligence when provided with this advice, and it is clear that you have not.

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you above, people with DSDs are all either male or female, no matter how ambiguous their genitalia might have been at birth. Furthermore, they form 0.018 of the global population. Using them as a “catch-all” third category is not only insulting, it is statistically almost pointless, and - if respondents make use of it because they don’t want to use the other options - potentially de-values all of your research.

If you are desperate for a third category beyond “male” and “female,” “prefer not to say”
is available, or even “other” if you insist that there are categories of sex other than “male” and “female.”

This is not a petty side-issue. By making use of this outdated, offensive, and inaccurate terminology in your census, Mumsnet is making publicly-facing statement about their attitude towards sex and DSDs. Is that something that you really want to be doing?

We understand that intersex is not a third sex

So why are you trying to imply there’s some sort of strange, in-between, third sex, then? There isn’t one and you said yourself you know there isn’t! 🤔

Maybe spend some time on your own FWR board? It's very informative.

I'm assuming someone nodded through this survey on the advice of some outsourced provider.

In which case, why not put it right, rather than doubling down on nonsense?

Intersex has been a deprecated term for some time as PPs outline.

MN was ill-advised.

There are better, clearer questions. Prof Alice Sullivan might have a chat with you.

Biologist here.

That 'very small minorotiy' is less than 0.02%.

'Difficult to categorise' doesn't mean 'can't be catagorised'. It merely means tthat it takes slightly more effort than a quick glance at the genitals at birth, but with modern medical technology it is really very simple to do. It's still usually done within hours or days of birth for the conditions that cause visible differences, and well before puberty even for the tiny minority of 'invisible' DSDs. Anyone answering the survey will know whether their sex is male or female.

Have you actually read the links provided in the first few posts explaining why it is (a) the wrong term, and (b) not something to use in the 'sex' section of a survey even if you fix the terminology?

I'll always be grateful to MN for allowing discussion when so many other places wouldn't, and too many still won't. But I'm not completing the survey until this fallacious 'intersex' nonsense is corrected.

Me too

and me

And me

Same here.

Same here.

Ridiculous from MNHQ on this. It needs to be changed.

Same here

This is now getting really embarrassing. Why can’t Mumsnet admit that they have got this wrong?

Is the census still open? When does it close?

Does @mnhq @BeckyAMumsnet not realise that women are self excluding from the census because it goes along with quack science associated with gender ideology - that ideology that is anti-women and anti-child safeguarding?

@BeckyAMumsnet

Stop spamming me with invitations to take the census, I'm not taking it while you have this offensive, fact-free, ideologically driven language in it.

Just admit you cocked up and fix it please.

What @nothingcomestonothing said.

@BeckyAMumsnet the pop-ups aren't going to persuade me to take a "census" that claims there is a third sex category in addition to male and female called "intersex". Utter nonsense.

I'm less worried about the intersex question than all the questions on finances - not just mine but also my partners who doesn't even use Mumsnet.

Gave up the survey half way through because of that. God knows why they want all that private information about finances or who they will sell it to.