Can we have a dedicated benefits bashing forum?

[Togglebullets]

It would clearly be very well used. There are now multiple threads every day on this theme.

Put them all in one place so these 'lovely' compassionate posters can all froth together.

The rest of us can then hide it and pretend the world isn't full of horrible people.

Thank you

Hi @Togglebullets We get the point you're making here, and we understand why some of these discussions could feel frustrating if you're seeing them often. Benefits, welfare policies, and the broader cost of living crisis are major political issues in the UK right now, so it’s not surprising that they come up frequently on the boards and generate strong opinions. We think it's reasonable to allow this as long as posts stay within our guidelines. Please report anything you'd like us to take a look at.

No, I don't see them as attacks or trolling. Genuine debate is healthy and shouldn't be shut down. I'll treat anyone with respect who approaches a topic with an open mind, even if they're arguing a point I disagree with.

But I do think there's an argument for shutting down or least discouraging blind bigotry. Certain well-worn tropes are being peddled on MN with increasing frequency atm, and are couched in such a way that anyone can tell from a mile off that the poster just wants - well, to create a lonely little echo chamber, ironically. You can see it in the indignation with which any rebuttal is treated. There's absolutely zero interest in seeing other POVs from these people, if there was they'd express themselves differently. I've reacted to a few recently and ended up kicking myself for wasting my time, because the pp in question just wants to be agreed with, not to discuss. I won't be clicking on them in future.

However, while anyone is free to click away from a conversation that isn't sitting right with them, I also believe that these endless benefit bashing/disability bashing threads are creating a harmful culture on MN in themselves, in that they are normalising this sort of bashing. As opposed to constructive talk around the flaws of the benefit system, I mean. As far as I can see they benefit no one except the OPs and those who share their prejudices.

I absolutely hate benefit bashing, it’s utterly awful to make people guilty for claiming something to which they are entitled. It’s particularly hard to fraudulently claim anything these days. The hoops that people who require DLA/PIP are made to jump through is frankly so terrifying that many never claim. Those that do are most often denied, only to later be awarded after having to go through a mandatory reconsideration and tribunal. I think it’s something like more than 70 percent of cases are overturned and awarded at tribunal. That should make it clear to anyone that it’s not a simple or easy process, and that anyone who has been lucky enough to be awarded does indeed deserve it and that it has likely been hard won! How awful is it that it should be this hard and such an upsetting process for people already suffering to claim the support that they are entitled to.

Far more goes unclaimed in benefits than is fraudulently claimed, and the largest part of the benefits bill is pensions!

People ought to point the finger where it really belongs! Successive governments who have misappropriated and plundered public funds, privatised essential services in the name of capitalism and under the guise of innovation and competitive markets and cost saving. That’s the problem when you make essential services a for profit racket, it simply does not lead to cost savings on the public purse, it leads to very much needed services being driven by profit and greed! Huge bonuses being paid out to shareholders and the like, while arguments and strikes are had over workers wanting to be paid a wage they can live on.

The government would rather point the finger and the benefits bill, or indeed at anything else that they can other than themselves. Each government blames its failures on the previous one and it seems nobody takes responsibility or accountability for anything at all!! They would love nothing more than for everyone to be here arguing over X down the road who has a brand new car and just got back from 3 weeks in the Maldives and is on PIP 🙄

It would be nice if posters displayed empathy and kindness before posting such ignorant and narrow minded opinions
I actually think this should be pinned at the top of threads
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
Speaking as someone on high rates of both components of PIP and ESA without reassessment
I don't think a benefits topic would make any difference. Posters to not magically become intelligent and well informed
I really don't understand why people are resentful of those living with disabilities
No takers when I've asked if posters would like my disability in enchanted for my PIP
I have moderate CP which is deteriorating as I age.

The above is the reality of having a disability it's not a windfall by any means.

Exchanged not enchanted!

@Normallynumb I presume you mean an indefinite PIP award with light touch reassessment in ten years, as this is the highest award possible. I have this award too, but it doesn't mean I can't see and acknowledge that the current system is flawed.

Yes that's what I have light touch review after 10 years
ESA SG without future assessment( waste of time and money)
I believe they will reverse the criteria for MH/ND conditions as this was widened hence the increase of claimants
New claims of LCWRA reduced as changes to WCA( including possibly of WFH for claimants with Mobility issues.

@Normallynumb Yes, I think they will likely make it harder to claim for ND and MH conditions (which, controversially, I support). I would also support removing reviews completely for incurable physical conditions and permanent disabilities like yours and mine, and for some developmental disabilities once a final review in settled adulthood has been done. At a certain point it becomes redundant to keep reviewing and a waste of money / simply a burden on the claimant. There should be a rarely used pathway for permanent awards for things like Down Syndrome, (truly) rare genetic conditions, etc.

I totally agree with you.
Removing need for reassessment would save so much from the budget but that's common sense, to you and I!

Briliant idea, yes. Unironically.

I would be overjoyed at a specific board for this sort of thing.

I could then hide it.

@madaffodil Are you a claimant? I am. I think it's valuable to have an idea of how people are feeling about the system. If the whole of society became completely disenchanted with paying for welfare benefits, theoretically they could vanish altogether and I'd be in big trouble. I'd rather have some forewarning and stay engaged with the debate.

I don't think a board like that would be well used. Mostly people who post this stuff just do it for effect as a wind up. If people stopped responding they probably wouldn't bother.

@imtheholidayarmadillo

But I do think there's an argument for shutting down or least discouraging blind bigotry.

There is a report button for anyone flouting the posting guidelines

This. People can scroll past the benefit threads if they don't want to read them surely?

@Miley1967

This. People can scroll past the benefit threads if they don't want to read them surely?

That's not good enough. They don't want the topic discussed at all. They don't want to have to see a thread about it and not click on it.

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy here.

Lots of posters come into these threads to share their experience of claiming the benefits in an attempt to prove that the benefits are hard to claim and necessary etc. They also share the experiences of their relatives and friends. This is often packaged under the guise that they are 'educating' posters that disagree with the system or think it's easy to claim.

However when other posters share their real life experiences of their own or people they know that prove that the system can be manipulated then they are instantly labelled malicious, liars or lacking a full understanding of the situation.

We either accept personal anecdote or we don't!

🫶👆

People are crafty, though. They stop just short of personal attacks on specific posters. Very often their vitriol is directed at that mythical person 'down the road', rather than anyone on the thread, making it more likely that any reports will be ignored in the name of 'robust debate'.

@imtheholidayarmadillo In other words, you just don't want views you dislike to be expressed.

A lot of the people posting about their dog walkers niece etc living it up on benefits are making it up though. You see people say they know someone who gets £1000pm in PIP when the max you can get is nowhere near that. Or they have been on PIP for 20 years, when it hasn't even around that long.

This. And also the benefit fraud figures are those that they know about!! There are many more people who are scamming benefits than those convicted of it!!

Benefits should be there to help those who need it, not those who want a bit extra.

No separate board is required.

A lot of the people posting about their dog walkers niece etc living it up on benefits are making it up though. You see people say they know someone who gets £1000pm in PIP when the max you can get is nowhere near that. Or they have been on PIP for 20 years, when it hasn't even around that long

And it's these deliberate lies and misinformation and exaggerations which are leading to frothing and outrage that make MN a hostile place for people with disabilities. The forum has had a problem with hostility towards disabled people and even disabled children for a long time and the attitude to benefits claimants is very much part and parcel of it. This is the issue not a blanket issue with benefit discussion at all but the insidious way benefit discussions on the forum are consistently used to demonise disabled people

@imtheholidayarmadillo

I think you need to take a break from boards discussing this subject