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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Please could you invite Hilary Cass?

134 replies

kiterunning · 16/10/2024 08:44

There are so many questions about the follow-up to her report.
It would be great to have a chance to clarify proposed treatment/therapy for children and also to thank her!

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2024 15:19

DadJoke · 21/10/2024 09:24

The issue is that gender identity isn’t a belief in the sense that religion is a belief - it’s in the same category as sexuality and has genetic and environmental components. It’s the gender critical belief that there is no such thing in the face of evidence which is the pseudo religious belief.

Religiosity is heritable as well. And many people posit that it is had-wired.

VegasVagabond · 21/10/2024 15:45

MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2024 15:19

Religiosity is heritable as well. And many people posit that it is had-wired.

Of course if 'gender identity' is genetic we'd need to know what 'gender' is to understand it, and presumably we'd come to some sort of interests/ behaviours associated with a particular sex class type understanding. (The association may be totally socially constructed or not ,that doesn't really matter, it just is a fact we can all observe, that we do always asscoiate some traits with certain sexes in all cultures, although the cultures vary)

I'd agree these traits are likely to have some heritability, as personality and interests have heritability.

We could then maybe agree that for some people their personality traits and interests which are socially incongruent with their sex, causes such dissonance and possibly distress it becomes a central element or defining aspect of how they view themselves: Identity based on gender/ gender identity.

But it is 'gender/ personaloty' whihchis inherited and an identity forms becase of the socila incongruence.

Suggesting it 'exists' without defining it is not possible. and the better we define it the clearer it becomes and the more possibility we can help people unerstand themselves and relieve distress,

BonfireLady · 21/10/2024 17:48

VegasVagabond · 21/10/2024 14:35

We have some great questions for Cass:

Does she believe in geneder identity?
If so, what does she believe it is, and what is the evidence for this?
Does she think psychologists who do not belive in gender identity, who may be GC can /should be abe to support children with distress at their perceived gender incongruenece?

Then lots of questions about the study. the new clinins and young adults.

There are many things to ask which remain unlcear from the review or her subsequent responses.

Please invite her MNHQ I thin it could be a very rich discussion.

As brilliant as it would be to fully understand Baroness Cass' personal view on this...

Does she believe in geneder identity?
If so, what does she believe it is, and what is the evidence for this?

... I think it would take up a whole interview/thread because we'd probably get no further than we see above where there is no consensus on who holds the belief and who holds the fact. I never refer to "gender critical belief" for this reason - I find it far more useful to refer to the legal protection that Forstater also achieved in the appeal to not believe that everyone has a gender identity.

Does she think psychologists who do not belive in gender identity, who may be GC can /should be abe to support children with distress at their perceived gender incongruenece?

This ⬆️ would be great though. This is going to be a very real position and it will be helpful to understand how a non-believer can navigate the delivery of neutral therapy to the satisfaction of a believer. A difference in core belief shouldn't matter at all when you look at the recommendations of the Cass Report, but what if a child is demanding affirmation only from the start and refuses to accept any approach that isn't a social transition, for example? Her thoughts on this would be really useful to understand.

Oblahdeeoblahdoe · 21/10/2024 17:50

Yes please. She was great on Woman's Hour a couple of weeks ago

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 21/10/2024 20:24

DadJoke · 21/10/2024 09:24

The issue is that gender identity isn’t a belief in the sense that religion is a belief - it’s in the same category as sexuality and has genetic and environmental components. It’s the gender critical belief that there is no such thing in the face of evidence which is the pseudo religious belief.

Nonsense. If that were true then everyone would have one. In reality, the vast majority of people don't have one. And even if they did, how would it be relevant to anything?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/10/2024 20:59

Knowing what sex one is is not the same type of "identity" as thinking you are the opposite sex because you don't feel aligned to the one you are.

I would say I'm surprised by the mental gymnastics on show here, but it's textbook for this ideological movement.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/10/2024 07:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/10/2024 20:59

Knowing what sex one is is not the same type of "identity" as thinking you are the opposite sex because you don't feel aligned to the one you are.

I would say I'm surprised by the mental gymnastics on show here, but it's textbook for this ideological movement.

Exactly. Male people with gender dysphoria don't have anything in common with female people without gender dysphoria (other than being human, of course). They certainly don't have any kind of shared identity which justifies them sharing the same single sex spaces or competing in the same sporting categories.

This discussion is, of course, somewhat outside the scope of what Dr Cass was commissioned to report on, which is how to treat gender distressed children. But I do think it is nevertheless somewhat implicit in her findings. In her report, Dr Cass acknowledges that for some people, whose dysphoria is extreme and persistent, medically transitioning will be the right option. But she cautions against taking any irreversible steps during childhood, or even steps which we might think to be reversible, such as socially transitioning a child by changing their name and pronouns. Why would you need to caution against this if being a trans adult were completely unproblematic and trans adults could expect to enjoy as fulfilling a life as anyone else?

And there's the rub. People can socially and medically transition but they will never, ever be the opposite sex and they will never, ever be accepted as such. Even if you move exclusively in the kind of circles where everyone uses your preferred pronouns and insists that you are what you say you are, there will always be limits. There will always be people who object to you using public toilets in accordance with what you see as your acquired gender. You will never be able to compete in sport without controversy. Any hospital admission could cause issues. And you will find that straight men and lesbians might be willing to say you are a woman but most of them are not actually willing to date you. And the ones who are willing to date you may not want to have a long term relationship with you because they want children, something you can never give them (unless you have not medically transitioned and are willing to use your body to perform its reproductive capabilities in accordance with your biological sex, something which triggers your dysphoria).

This isn't to say that trans people can't live happy and fulfilling lives, but trans adults face struggles and challenges that the rest of us don't face (and that's before you even address any health problems they may suffer as a result of medically transitioning) and so it's not the ideal outcome if it can be avoided.

I think this is implicit in the Cass review, where Dr Cass essentially green lights medical transition in a small number of adults as a last resort where all other treatment options have failed, but suggests that otherwise it's not a good outcome. She says so very subtly, but the message is there. And it's essentially the same thing Helen Joyce said, much more bluntly, about needing to keep the number of people who have transitioned to an absolute minimum. Dr Cass can, of course, never say this explicitly, even in a Mumsnet Q&A.

BonfireLady · 22/10/2024 08:54

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/10/2024 07:29

Exactly. Male people with gender dysphoria don't have anything in common with female people without gender dysphoria (other than being human, of course). They certainly don't have any kind of shared identity which justifies them sharing the same single sex spaces or competing in the same sporting categories.

This discussion is, of course, somewhat outside the scope of what Dr Cass was commissioned to report on, which is how to treat gender distressed children. But I do think it is nevertheless somewhat implicit in her findings. In her report, Dr Cass acknowledges that for some people, whose dysphoria is extreme and persistent, medically transitioning will be the right option. But she cautions against taking any irreversible steps during childhood, or even steps which we might think to be reversible, such as socially transitioning a child by changing their name and pronouns. Why would you need to caution against this if being a trans adult were completely unproblematic and trans adults could expect to enjoy as fulfilling a life as anyone else?

And there's the rub. People can socially and medically transition but they will never, ever be the opposite sex and they will never, ever be accepted as such. Even if you move exclusively in the kind of circles where everyone uses your preferred pronouns and insists that you are what you say you are, there will always be limits. There will always be people who object to you using public toilets in accordance with what you see as your acquired gender. You will never be able to compete in sport without controversy. Any hospital admission could cause issues. And you will find that straight men and lesbians might be willing to say you are a woman but most of them are not actually willing to date you. And the ones who are willing to date you may not want to have a long term relationship with you because they want children, something you can never give them (unless you have not medically transitioned and are willing to use your body to perform its reproductive capabilities in accordance with your biological sex, something which triggers your dysphoria).

This isn't to say that trans people can't live happy and fulfilling lives, but trans adults face struggles and challenges that the rest of us don't face (and that's before you even address any health problems they may suffer as a result of medically transitioning) and so it's not the ideal outcome if it can be avoided.

I think this is implicit in the Cass review, where Dr Cass essentially green lights medical transition in a small number of adults as a last resort where all other treatment options have failed, but suggests that otherwise it's not a good outcome. She says so very subtly, but the message is there. And it's essentially the same thing Helen Joyce said, much more bluntly, about needing to keep the number of people who have transitioned to an absolute minimum. Dr Cass can, of course, never say this explicitly, even in a Mumsnet Q&A.

This ⬆️⬆️⬆️

RedCedars · 22/10/2024 09:44

I would love to have her here. It’d be really interesting and so important.

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