Deletion of discussion of racism thread

[JenniferBarkley]

Why on earth was this morning's thread on the discussion of racism deleted?

It wasn't a TAAT, it was a discussion of an endemic (and IMO worsening) problem across MN as a whole.

I've been astounded at the sheer volume of racist posts this week, I obviously know those views exist but to have so many posters willingly share them was genuinely shocking to me.

Why on earth was a thread discussing that taken down? The women of colour on here must be feeling like shit this morning.

[cakeorwine]

I think that the MN has become known for its discussions on trans issues. Which are important and necessary. I also think that SOME of the people who have been attracted here to discuss trans people are also people who have an issue with minority groups. I use the word SOME in there as clearly there are people who want to discuss trans issues who don't have an issue with minority groups and just want to discuss trans issues.

So these new users who have views on other minority groups are going to take part in a discussion about other minority groups.

[dreamingbohemian]

Yes I agree @cakeorwine that was the point made on the thread

I reported a number of posts that were racist, I'm sure others did too

[cakeorwine]

@dreamingbohemian

It was not deflecting from racism, it was one explanation for an increase in racist posts.

There have been loads of articles in the news lately about the overlap in transphobic and racist groups. This is a completely valid subject of discussion.

I agree. There are SOME people who are clearly transphobic and who want to take part in the discussions about trans people. This is very different from saying that people who take part in discussions about trans people are transphobic

There are people who are transphobic and who are also racist. Probably also sexist. And homophobic. These people are now on MN.

This is not saying that MN should not have discussions about trans people. Far from it But by having such open debates, it's attracted people as described above.

[cakeorwine]

@dreamingbohemian

Yes I agree @cakeorwine that was the point made on the thread

I reported a number of posts that were racist, I'm sure others did too

And people got upset when this was mentioned.

Unfortunately this is a consequence of MN's approach.

[NippyWoowoo]

@AutumnCrow

There were deeply offensive posts on that thread saying that concerns about children's safeguarding and women's safety etc were 'phobic' and akin to racism (ffs). So the subject of racism was yet again pushed down and away in favour of talking about bloody men's rights activists' hurtiness. So offensive.

How did 'concerns about children's safeguarding and women's safety' make it onto a thread about racism?

I missed it so am genuinely curious

[lljkk]

@hairdisasterhelpneeded

@lljkk how is MN "deeply misandrist"?

I feel like if I have to explain then you won't get it...

Any time a man did something to piss off the MNer, then he becomes an emblem of all men, what's wrong with all of them. Not an individual (human who screws up or has selfish moments) but "oh that's just typical of men" posts get trotted out. Like clockwork.

And really weird stuff gets alleged. Like, Adam Kay not worshipping fannies is because "there's a certain type of gay man who lords it over women just because all men hate women deep down" type statements. Sheer paranoia about males.

Maybe I'll just flag up the misandry everytime I see it on a thread, do a google search end of year to count how often.

[Sausagenbacon]

Personally I think the thread was a deliberate attempt to portray MN as a white middle-class cesspit of transphobic racists that should be discredited, or at least, dismissed. So basically a nefarious agenda.
That's what I've got from it too.

[Itsbiasedhere]

Well this is a hotbed of misandry. You can make sweeping statements about men that you would never be allowed to say about Muslims or black people all 3 protected characteristics. On that thread there were generalisations about white people you wouldn't see last 5 mins if the same was said about black people. This is a private site it is positively woke compared to pistonheads or Reddit I don't agree with the moderation at times but I don't try shutting down debate by slinging accusations of racism around.

[Interviewnamechange]

Itsbiasedhere · Yesterday 22:39
Well this is a hotbed of misandry. You can make sweeping statements about men that you would never be allowed to say about Muslims or black people all 3 protected characteristics. On that thread there were generalisations about white people you wouldn't see last 5 mins if the same was said about black people. This is a private site it is positively woke compared to pistonheads or Reddit I don't agree with the moderation at times but I don't try shutting down debate by slinging accusations of racism around.

THIS.

[LondonWolf]

@Sausagenbacon

Personally I think the thread was a deliberate attempt to portray MN as a white middle-class cesspit of transphobic racists that should be discredited, or at least, dismissed. So basically a nefarious agenda.
That's what I've got from it too.

Yes, there's a great deal of this happening on MN and it reflects what is happening generally on SM and in the UK.

[Sausagenbacon]

What truly shocked me was the suggestion the mn staff members be 'educated' on this.
Obviously from people too young/ignorant to see the implications of this.

[SusiePevensie]

It is uncomfortable, but anti-trans thinking is front and centre in a LOT of far right movements. If mumsnet becomes seen as a safe space for those debates then some of what comes along won't be good.

As for the racism/safeguarding overlap 'those people want to rape our women/abuse our children' is the oldest trick in the racism playbook.

It's messy and complicated and ugly. I don't know what the right way forward is.

[Sausagenbacon]

I disagree. I think gc women discussing women's rights is unbearable to the Left, who are happy to throw accusations of transphobia around, and would be very happy to see mn discredited.

[AnElegantChaos]

What truly shocked me was the suggestion the mn staff members be 'educated' on this. Obviously from people too young/ignorant to see the implications of this.

Too young and ignorant you say? 48 years old, spent a considerable number of years working for an anti-racism charity, and yes there needs to be education on here because the amount of racism being left unchecked is shocking. So I don't quite fit your neat little too young and ignorant hypothesis. While some of the racism is explicit, sadly a lot of it is more subtle (yet obsessive) and manipulative making it hard to pinpoint, nevertheless it will be blatant to the thousands of people who lurk on these threads. So no, it's not "shocking" that people think MN staff members need educated and I would suggest you also need to be.

I disagree. I think gc women discussing women's rights is unbearable to the Left, who are happy to throw accusations of transphobia around, and would be very happy to see mn discredited.

I'm on the Left and am also GC, however the amount of naked transphobia on this site quite beggars belief yet is very visible to me, someone who is GC. Sorry if you don't want to hear this but the link between racism and transphobia is STRONG.

What a wonderful thing it would be for MN reputation if it became a safer space for minority and marginalised groups.

Hope that helps.

[Sausagenbacon]

In your opinion. And I'm happy for you to hold that opinion. That's how society should work. But most of the level of discussion on the thread was 'you disagree with me? you're racist'.
On the AIBU poll over half the posters who polled their opinion think you are wrong. I guess that you, and others like you, think we are all entrenched in our racism and need re-education.
Luckily for MN I don't think that's coming any time soon.
And yes, I do believe that people who want others (it's always others, isn't it?) to be 're educated' clearly have no knowledge of how well the Cultural Revolution went in China. So, yes, they are stupid.

[AnElegantChaos]

And yes, I do believe that people who want others (it's always others, isn't it?) to be 're educated' clearly have no knowledge of how well the Cultural Revolution went in China. So, yes, they are stupid.

Wow, said with no sense of irony.

[LondonWolf]

@Sausagenbacon

In your opinion. And I'm happy for you to hold that opinion. That's how society should work. But most of the level of discussion on the thread was 'you disagree with me? you're racist'.
On the AIBU poll over half the posters who polled their opinion think you are wrong. I guess that you, and others like you, think we are all entrenched in our racism and need re-education.
Luckily for MN I don't think that's coming any time soon.
And yes, I do believe that people who want others (it's always others, isn't it?) to be 're educated' clearly have no knowledge of how well the Cultural Revolution went in China. So, yes, they are stupid.

Agree.

I'm hopeful though. As you say the poll speaks otherwise and I see more and more posters pushing back on these nasty, divisive political ideologies. No one wants to be called "racist" or "transphobic" because most people mean well and are not these things, so it shocks and frightens them when accused of them, and that kept most people in check...for a while. But common sense and decency will always reassert itself eventually and anyone with an ounce critical thinking ability can see that these flimsy structures cannot stand once scrutinised.

[Sausagenbacon]

no irony required. The Cultural Revolution began with people who were so convinced of their intellectual superiority, and the deficiencies of other peoples' understanding that they were prepared, in the name of 're-education' to pull society down around them.
So I'm unapologetic about finding the sheer arrogance of many posters - 'you may know how you think, but we REALLY know how you think - repulsive.
And let's keep pushing for common sense and decency LondonWolf.