I’m concerned about the amount of misinformation on the Covid threads. Mumsnet have a duty of cars to their readers.

[Beadebaser]

A few days ago I reported a post that linked to an unverified claim about a child with vaccine damage from the Covid jab. It is a case that has been weaponised by anti vaxxers and is highly controversial.

The response from Mumsnet was that the post didn’t break guidelines. I pointed out why it was misinformation and was told that their decision had been made - and I could simply turn off the Covid threads if I didn’t agree. I then linked a credible news article explaining why it was misinformation and that the case was being weaponised by anti vaxxers - and Mumsnet didn’t respond.
Misinformation is an online harm and Mumsnet has a duty of care to its readers.

Mumsnet is perhaps different to other social media platforms, as it’s readers often come looking for advice and support. Some readers may be vulnerable. This is why Mumsnet’s duty of care is particularly important.
I think Mumsnet should be doing more to tackle misinformation.
Debate is good, but many posters are being encouraged not to follow the NHS guidelines. If one vaccine hesitant person is deterred from making the right choice due to misinformation - this could lead to a chain of events that could mean someone is unnecessarily in iCU.
Things are pretty critical for hospitals right now, so I think it’s vital that Mumsnet does more to address the issue.

@hamstersarse

Oh come on. I do feel a slight sense of victory, but I’m trying to do it for the right reasons.

Out of interest, were you aware of the controversy - or did you believe it to be correct information?

Did you really just get my last comment deleted?

It was only reflecting back what you wanted to do by having posts deleted - saving lives

@hamstersarse no it wasn’t, it was snarky and could well be interpreted as a personal attack. Your last comment is disingenuous.

Illustrates my reasoning behind wanting posts spoilered/hidden rather than completely deleted though. Any one reading has no way to know so they?

Well that is a whole new form of deletions on Mumsnet. Snarky comments being deleted. Jeez the mods are going to be very busy.

It’s a personal attack…

Too snarky again?

@Cornettoninja

It’s a personal attack…

It really wasn't though was it

I accept snarky and sarcy, but it wasn't a personal attack

Not unless you aim it directly at another poster.

I don’t think anyone's daft enough to take anything posted by a random anonymous on MN as gospel any more than they are on any other part of the Internet! Give people some credit.
If they are seeking out alternative views they aren't stopping because MNHebe deletes a thread.

It’s not really about people being daft or not or their perceived level of intelligence. Words, written or spoken, have power and influence and feeds into a much larger picture. Various military and intelligence agencies worldwide recognise this, it exists in varying degrees but it’s naive to think that everyone approaches information in the same way you do.

Sweden has just set up a psychological defence agency (www.mpf.se/en/), the internet has given us a whole avalanche of information the likes of which we’ve never had to consider the impact of in the history of civilisation and it’s thrown up a fair few moral dilemmas.

The whole Cambridge Analytica happened. Brittney kaiser told the uk inquiry that what CA did was equivalent to weapon grade warfare. Thats all about how targeted misinformation/disinformation is a genuine threat! It was illegal in the uk without ok from uk government. Misinformation and disinformation causes harm and needs to be taken seriously

@Cornettoninja I agree and thanks for the link, I had a quick look. Sweden was every anti-Covid restrictions favourite country a while ago, so it’s interesting to hear their stance.

“We defend our open and democratic society and free opinions by identifying, analysing and responding to inappropriate influences and other misleading information directed at Sweden or Swedish interests.”

Yes @Newrunner29 - agree. It’s not as the above poster states ‘noone is daft enough to take as gospel’. People do! And it’s not about daftness either. The video I saw (the misinformation being that unvaccinated children were being refused entry to an event) had about 90% taking it at face value and believing. Then one poster linked to news reports stating the reality. It was simply that the event was sold out.

@hamstersarse - I’d really like to know- were you fully aware of the controversy surrounding the case study you shared - did you know that the video about her was made by an anti vaccine group/her lawyer is also controversial/vaccine opponent?

@hamstersarse

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I actually agreed with your response.

Vaccines do have side effects. It is dangerous and disingenuous to claim otherwise and remove conversation relating to it.

They campaigned to get this removed

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9823741/amp/Instagram-clip-woman-struggling-walk-vaccinated-fuels-anti-vax-sentiment.html

But it is a documented side effect. Life is terminal everything has risks. Much prefer robust discussion than censorship.

@Dinosauria no one is denying that - or trying to say vaccines are 100% safe.

But is showing a distressing video appropriate? How would you feel if I linked to videos of young children bouncing around full of health and happiness after having the vaccine - and tried to convince everyone that the vaccine is completely safe for children?

It would be misleading and wrong. Indeed - I would have a ‘stop’ button, I wouldn’t do it - because I know it would be medically inaccurate.

There are posts after posts of guilt trips regarding not having the vaccine, Boris and his you have to have the booster, one dose is useless (whilst supporting one dose for 12+, I know that has now changed to two doses but still) there have been loads of scare tactics to get people vaccinated.

Fwiw I don't in general disagree with what you are trying to achieve, I just feel it is a very slippery slope.

What would be brilliant is if MNHQ could get one of the fantastic scientists or doctors on to do one of those guest posts.

There are several on other social media platforms like twitter who are particularly good. Wonderfully calm clear-headed, articulate, well-explained and balanced sensible information. On Long Covid as well as other issues like vaccines.

I don't know if any of them would be willing or have the time, but I think it might help offer some expert reassurance for those who have any concerns or confusion including about vaccines.

@Dinosauria I agree that guilt trips are wrong too - and scare tactics - that would be counter productive.
I also try not to focus on ‘Boris’ - more so : is this what science is advising and why? If I don’t trust our government, then to look across Europe and see if other governments are doing the same. I can fully see why the advice surrounding vaccines is not ‘set in stone’ and I’ve never seen the vaccine as a be all and end all. The virus mutates, so the advice needs to change.

@Tealightsandd yes - and even better if they were more permanent and could step in on all threads. Dr Mumsnet.

I’ve never seen the vaccine as a be all and end all

But for months it has been presented as such, Boris is just the poster boy I agree, but this is the direction we have taken. I understand why people are perplexed that they still are poorly with covid after being boosted, I understand why people have lost faith in vaccination.
Media/government dictat sold vaccines as the answer, you are right it is much more complicated than that, they are a major part of the answer but not the get out of jail free card people were led to believe.

I don't think the vaccine was ever sold as a cure. Just that you were likely to be much less affected badly. People (and by that I mean the media too) misinterpreted the science.

I agree. The amount of comments that are spreading disinformation and the number of threads derailed by panicking covid deniers on mumsnet is horrifying. Recent examples.

A thread where someone is worried about a delayed ambulance - no mention of covid. Responses: “there were always delays, nothing to do with covid, we all need to get back to normal”

A thread where someone needs emotional and relationship support with a covid positive husband and a newborn baby. Responses: “get over yourself, you hate your husband and just using covid as an excuse, you need to get back to normal”

Faint negative PCR meaning cancelled Christmas. Responses: “you just hate your MIL/DH/DC (insert as appropriate), I can’t see a positive line, we need to get back to normal”

This is every area of mumsnet. It’s not a case of “hide the covid threads”. Every thread has a covid denier ranting about how everyone else is wrong. It is frightening and I do believe mumsnet has a duty of care to remove those comments. Not just because they’re spreading disinformation but because they’re derailing EVERY thread.

@Tippytaps

I agree. The amount of comments that are spreading disinformation and the number of threads derailed by panicking covid deniers on mumsnet is horrifying. Recent examples.

A thread where someone is worried about a delayed ambulance - no mention of covid. Responses: “there were always delays, nothing to do with covid, we all need to get back to normal”

A thread where someone needs emotional and relationship support with a covid positive husband and a newborn baby. Responses: “get over yourself, you hate your husband and just using covid as an excuse, you need to get back to normal”

Faint negative PCR meaning cancelled Christmas. Responses: “you just hate your MIL/DH/DC (insert as appropriate), I can’t see a positive line, we need to get back to normal”

This is every area of mumsnet. It’s not a case of “hide the covid threads”. Every thread has a covid denier ranting about how everyone else is wrong. It is frightening and I do believe mumsnet has a duty of care to remove those comments. Not just because they’re spreading disinformation but because they’re derailing EVERY thread.

“ Faint negative PCR” should read “faint positive LFT”

@Beadebaser
Yes, I know the case is controversial but I probably think it’s controversial for different reasons to you.
I think the story has been played down and I think it’s extremely serious that Pfizer did not report the case in the trial data. Your point about them using ‘anti vaxx’ lawyers doesn’t really convince me of anything, such is the suppression of information and willingness to toe the line by most of the population and the entire vaccine evangelism which has emerged, it’s not a surprise to me that this law firm took it on. No one else would risk their reputation in this climate. But I just cannot square that with the background of the parents in this case, the father is in the medical field, the mother an engineer, the very fact their daughter was in the trial tells you they cannot possibly be anti vaxx.

I am skeptical about how Pharma companies have been operating for years. There are many reasons for that, none more than the hundreds of cases of falsified data, ineffective drugs, exaggerated claims, actual harm done to people. (Dopesick is a good look at this when it comes to OxyContin) It costs pfizer about a pound per dose and they are selling each dose for £22 to us. There is a lot of money involved here, and it’s naive to think that doesn’t impact behaviour. It is in Pfizer’s interests to vaccinate babies for example, but it’s unclear what the benefit is for a baby, and I do feel we are giving them an easy path with all of this given their history….the claims they made this time last year just haven’t born out. Pfizer CEO actually tweeted they have 100% efficacy in preventing tramsmission, it wasn’t a coincidence that Biden was shouting about this “get the vaccine and you won’t get covid” because that was the sales pitch from Pfizer.

The refusal to discuss the side effects are extremely concerning, I have seen some awful stats for myocarditis in young men, my son had it. But if you even try to discuss it you are shut down as an anti vaxxer and its minimised as being ‘minor’. I believe in informed consent and there is no doubt the level of coercion to get the vaccine is extraordinary given the refusal to be transparent about the risks. I just think shutting down the debate is risky 🤷‍♀️

@Clymene

I don't think the vaccine was ever sold as a cure. Just that you were likely to be much less affected badly. People (and by that I mean the media too) misinterpreted the science.

I agree and think this is what I’ve been trying to say. The basic, original, facts were never sold as a completely 100% risk free end to what we’ve experienced this pandemic. Even with omicron, they’re still doing what was communicated at the outset - they’re a tool not a silver bullet. Vaccines basically replace more restrictive mitigations.

We all had equal access to exactly the same information which was publicised as widely as it could be yet we’re still left with a significant proportion of people who’ve largely gained the same information from other sources with heavy biases and now feel aggrieved that they were ‘lied’ to when actually they were given unbalanced information.

It’s happening with severe side effects from covid vaccines to some extent; yes some people experience severe side effects or even death but it’s not that it doesn’t matter it’s that various algorithms disproportionally feed people information giving them a skewed perspective. People then become tribalised and vulnerable to radicalism and the split we see currently in society.

@hamstersarse I’m sorry and I can see how a personal experience like that would shape your beliefs.

I can see where you are coming from - although I don’t agree.