I’m concerned about the amount of misinformation on the Covid threads. Mumsnet have a duty of cars to their readers.

[Beadebaser]

A few days ago I reported a post that linked to an unverified claim about a child with vaccine damage from the Covid jab. It is a case that has been weaponised by anti vaxxers and is highly controversial.

The response from Mumsnet was that the post didn’t break guidelines. I pointed out why it was misinformation and was told that their decision had been made - and I could simply turn off the Covid threads if I didn’t agree. I then linked a credible news article explaining why it was misinformation and that the case was being weaponised by anti vaxxers - and Mumsnet didn’t respond.
Misinformation is an online harm and Mumsnet has a duty of care to its readers.

Mumsnet is perhaps different to other social media platforms, as it’s readers often come looking for advice and support. Some readers may be vulnerable. This is why Mumsnet’s duty of care is particularly important.
I think Mumsnet should be doing more to tackle misinformation.
Debate is good, but many posters are being encouraged not to follow the NHS guidelines. If one vaccine hesitant person is deterred from making the right choice due to misinformation - this could lead to a chain of events that could mean someone is unnecessarily in iCU.
Things are pretty critical for hospitals right now, so I think it’s vital that Mumsnet does more to address the issue.

@Beadebaser

The problem is that Mumsnet - at this present time - are only answerable to themselves. Facebook and Twitter are members of an organisation that monitor online harms, so it is possible to report them through this organisation. Mumsnet are not, I have actually contacted Ofcom about the issue - but they are unable to help.

Yes Facebook and Twitter, the bastions of balanced speech and unharmful views.

@Dinosauria this is the thing! Yes I think debate is hugely important. But - there is a point where things become harmful. Online harms such as racism SHOULD be censored. However misinformation/fake news is a relatively new online harm. I do believe that the pros and cons of the vaccine SHOULD be discussed, but if that discussion is being manipulated by fake news (e.g I’ve seen pictures of a photoshopped vaccine packet) then that IS wrong and could be harmful.

@Dinosauria yes, they are bad! But at least there is someone you can report to. I think Mumsnet is different because potentially confused people come here looking for advice. So they need to be accountable.

Facebook are actually pretty good at monitoring their anti vaxx posts - they censor pretty quickly or put an appropriate link by each post.

I agree that MN perform fairy poorly regarding misinformation and shills. Other sites manage to flag without necessarily removing posts yet MN seems to think they don’t need to take any responsibility for the kind of conversations that can freely take place here.

I don’t think that posts necessarily need removing but there needs to be something in place that highlights questionable claims. A blanket notice on all threads mentioning vaccines might be appropriate.

I’m also not sure the ones they do delete make much impact because the effect of just deleting a post means there’s no trail of what has been said and is therefore unacceptable. I think I’d rather threads were locked over being deleted like there has never been an issue.

@Cornettoninja

Agree - Facebook at least do an independent fact checker thing - and blank out misinformation or a doctored photo - and then ‘visit the Covid 19 centre for more info’.

At the very least, MN should be fact checking some of these threads if they won't take them down.

A disclaimer and link to accurate, evidence based information would help. Some of these threads can seem so sincere, so much damage has been done by so few.

Again, it depends on your point of view. Facebook certainly do do a lot of fact checking, but it is not true to say that is not contentious.

Even the BMJ have things to say about this 'fact checking' on social media - science is not black and white as I know everyone here knows. Things are never as straightforward as we would all like them to be, things surprise us, things are unexpected and for that reason, censoring information and conversation has always been the road to ruin - we can never have absolute certainty. Even this pandemic has shown that things we said a year ago as 'fact' simply aren't true now, and that includes 'facts' about the vaccine efficacy - do you want to censor people who are talking about the current effectiveness of the vaccines (not booster) and stick to the fact that last year they were 90% effective, but now can be less than 30% - do you class that as misinformation now?

You have to trust that people can make their own minds up and you don't need to caretake for people all the time.

www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1170

@hamstersarse because science is in a constant state of flux. It’s not set in stone.
But there the general consensus of opinion - and then emerging science.

The consensus of science would have been peer reviewed, large scale, robust as accurate and safe as poss - but nothing is foolproof — and scientists are faced with an ever mutating virus/ever changing picture.
Emerging science is of course vital - but before it’s released on the general public, it needs to tested - it needs to be as safe as poss, otherwise even bigger mistakes could be made.
And in the timescale that we have, which is tricky as the virus pretty speedy and ever changing.

I came across that particular case for the first time in the MN thread.

As it was, I could read both points of view, and as I see it, it's possible that the child was harmed by the vaccine, and possible that there is another explanation. There is no conclusive evidence either way.

If every mention of this case, and others like it, was deleted instead of discussed, I'd be much more likely to be concerned, and wonder why they were being censored and covered up. Much more suspicious that something untoward was going on.

If you think something is wrong, don't censor it, put forward your argument against it.

Absolutely! if someone makes a wild claim not based on evidence and tries to pass it as 'fact' and the post is reported then, it should be removed.

The anti-vaxx claims on social media need to be addressed...

I am not talking about people offering different point of view on how Covid is dealt with which should be welcome and is simply freedom of speech, it is about people putting out so called medical or scientific evidence/fact which are simply made-up to fit in with the anti-vaxx conspiracy theories.

That’s a pretty idealistic pov though isn’t it @hamstersarse? Regulatory bodies like Ofcom and laws around libel arose because there was a need to ‘protect’ people from misinformation and the harm it can cause.

Aside from covid we’re at a fairly interesting point regarding digital media. Any legislation to control communication of harmful information (from terrorism to mlm) is way behind current capabilities and volume. It’s not about denying people access to information to make their own minds up it’s about preventing inaccuracies becoming accepted as standard information.

It doesn’t fill me with joy to think that the internet requires moderation or censorship but the truth is that it’s an evolution of what we’ve had in printed and televised sources already.

I’m not sure it’s idealistic, but it’s certainly libertarian

I trust that people are able to discern their own point of view. Yes, occasionally they may fall foul of liars and treacheries but so what, that’s life, that’s always been the way.

I’d argue it’s more idealistic to think you can accurately censor science. It has so many potential pitfalls. For example, just imagine that case is proven to be caused by the vaccine, and it’s been censored and taken down everywhere…how do you square that with everything?

I go back to that case purely because it’s the one OP specifically mentioned as misinformation, people pile on and go “yeah misinformation” but the truth is no one knows.

I think the best thing we can all do is report everything dodgy. If MNHQ get completely overwhelmed with reports then they may up their game and start banning those who deliberately spread lies.

Yes we can all counteract the misinformation, but it could be a full time job as the same lies pop up in thread after thread after thread.

I agree if people are quoting so called.facts that are not facts or linking to sites that provide misinformation they should be removed. Conspiracy theories and misinformation about COVID is dangerous and Mumsnet shouldn't allow it

If you can see what posts are saying the truth and what are lies, why are you assuming that everyone else can't?

@ZuttZeVootEeeVo because I’ve seen people take a photoshopped picture of a vaccine packet at face value and believe the expiry date was real and not added on. It’s only once you go an image search you can see what’s happened - and not everyone would do that. Similarly a video linked here was described as ‘unvaccinated children being turned away from a Santa event’. Other posters were saying ‘that’s disgraceful’ - but a bit of research/Dutch news report revealed it was simply that the event was sold out.

That is censorship. Credit posters with the intelligence to research for themselves what is true or not.

Do you want to censor all topics? I’ve seen some terrible misguided breastfeeding advice on the baby feeding board. Bad relationship advice on relationships that could lead someone to stay with an abusive dangerous partner. Bad financial advice that could lead people to ruining their financial stability. Advice to parents of gender non confirming kids that might lead to children going down a path of sterilisation. And on and on. Should Mumsnet censor everything or is it just the coronavirus stuff?

@Glassisalwaysgreener

That is censorship. Credit posters with the intelligence to research for themselves what is true or not.

Do you want to censor all topics? I’ve seen some terrible misguided breastfeeding advice on the baby feeding board. Bad relationship advice on relationships that could lead someone to stay with an abusive dangerous partner. Bad financial advice that could lead people to ruining their financial stability. Advice to parents of gender non confirming kids that might lead to children going down a path of sterilisation. And on and on. Should Mumsnet censor everything or is it just the coronavirus stuff?

True research isnt done by general population, everyone doesnt know scientific research because they are not trained in it. The fact, facts are not clear if they are true or not as misinformation and disinformation is so readily available means u can easily find a belief and it can both saying its true When one could well be just a lie. Also something could be true in a sense but presented as something different.

@Glassisalwaysgreener

That is censorship. Credit posters with the intelligence to research for themselves what is true or not.

Do you want to censor all topics? I’ve seen some terrible misguided breastfeeding advice on the baby feeding board. Bad relationship advice on relationships that could lead someone to stay with an abusive dangerous partner. Bad financial advice that could lead people to ruining their financial stability. Advice to parents of gender non confirming kids that might lead to children going down a path of sterilisation. And on and on. Should Mumsnet censor everything or is it just the coronavirus stuff?

Also all ur other examples are subjective advice. A world wide responce to the pandemic is a vaccination operation, weather u agree is obviously up to the individual but that doesnt mean misinformation or disinformation should be allowed on mumsnet. Someones personal view on how to brestfeed is totally different to sharing an article which is clearly misinformation or disinformation about the effectiveness of the vaccine.

Its also pretty obvious if the vaccine wasnt effective all the countires wouldnt be vaccinating their population, also we would have same numbers in hospital and died as early 2020.

True research isnt done by general population, everyone doesnt know scientific research because they are not trained in it. The fact, facts are not clear if they are true or not as misinformation and disinformation is so readily available means u can easily find a belief and it can both saying its true When one could well be just a lie. Also something could be true in a sense but presented as something different.

You are asking a lot from the mods at MNHQ to scientific research and fact check every post on MN.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVo

True research isnt done by general population, everyone doesnt know scientific research because they are not trained in it. The fact, facts are not clear if they are true or not as misinformation and disinformation is so readily available means u can easily find a belief and it can both saying its true When one could well be just a lie. Also something could be true in a sense but presented as something different.

You are asking a lot from the mods at MNHQ to scientific research and fact check every post on MN.

Its impossible task im not denying it but this whole let everyone research for themselves really gets to me. We dont let everyone research how to fly a plane before they book thier ticket! We trust the pilot do their job! Why cant we let scientists who have dedicated thier careers to it do theirs!

@ZuttZeVootEeeVo which would also apply to @Glassisalwaysgreener post where it states ‘credit posters with the intelligence to do their own research’. Perhaps it’s not really to do with intelligence, it’s having the time to research and fact check it all. It’s also about peer persuasion.

I can see Mumsnet would have a hard job to monitor it all - but I was surprised at the response to my post flag.
Have to say - Mumsnet have since contacted me again - and are looking into it further.

Also its not a case that 50% of scientists have disagreed with vaccines and we mayb have countries that have chosen not to vaccinate we literally have a world wide effort! Its collectively decided that vaccines are the best solution.