Thoughts on tweaking MN

[MsAmerica]

Since the mods very cordially expressed a willingness to read suggestions, I put something together for you. I tried to think this through to cover as much as possible, although I admit I'm not an experienced poster here. So these are things I've noticed that you might want to re-think, but overall the main suggestion is just to tidy up the layout for clarity, and re-organize and re-name some forums, to make the posting process more user-friendly. Please excuse a bit of repetition, as the categories overlap. (Also, some small additions since my original failed attempt to post, with apologies to mods who were already kind enough to read the initial version.)

I haven’t been able to post this, possibly because it’s so long, but I’m now going to try it in sections, as suggested, and see if that works.

@CircleofWillis

'Zombie Carpet Fitter' sounds like an exciting topic for a thread. I suspect I'll be gravely disappointed if I read it though.

Prepare for disappointment.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1451929-Help-Carpet-fitter-has-just-stormed-out-AIBU?pg=1

@saraclara antediluvian it may be, but so am I. And given the huge numbers of younger people who use MN, its 'basic-ness' is evidently not too off-putting...

@A580Hojas

Goodness! .

So, when and where did Mumsnet express their "willingness to read suggestions" ?

Right here. Are you surprised? Well, maybe they didn't expect what they ended up with.

@SixQuidGames

Actually, I think it’s a good thing that people take the time to look at a website and think about how it could be made better.

User experience is an important part of website development. Unfortunately, a lot of website owners ignore UX in favour of what they want to do which is invariably more about commercial requirements.

Thank you. I agree, and it just happens that it's my mindset with almost anything.

It's interesting to me that most people voicing objections don't mention a single thing they agree with. Then again, I don't know how many people had the patience to read through it all.

I think some things are completely unobjectionable. For instance, why wouldn't you want to head the listings with the name of the original poster?

Hey, why do some replies not have the option to "quote"?

Anyway, ArblemarchTFruitbat wrote:
I don't think that disagreeing with the OP constitutes a pile on. The OP is entitled to make suggestions. Other MNetters are entitled to explain why they wouldn't support the suggestions.
I think where the OP has misfired is that she's trying to make MN more like other forums, whereas most of us are on here because it's different. Also (possibly as a new poster) the OP hasn't tuned into the MN self-deprecating style of humour (Telly Addicts, Pedants' Corner).

I wouldn't say I'm trying to make the site like others - I'd say that it makes sense in any aspect of life to pick up good elements from one place and try them in another if it seems likely to improve things.

And I don't object at all to humor, but would just prefer it wouldn't be denigrating. For instance, most people wouldn't like to be called pedants, but I'm sure someone could come up with a terms that might also be amusing but not with that denigrating slant. That's apart from the fact that it's awful vague. One can be a pedant on any subject.

@toastofthetown

I agree with a lot of those. I've been on Mumsnet since threads showed newest to oldest the improvements in that time have been pretty minimal. For Books forum I agree; I had no idea where to post about books on the mobile site. On the desktop it's ok because it's the one I didn't need to click on more to reach (and I agree with your point on more, especially for the more niche boards. Who would have guessed Weddings was in Fun and Games?!). I think the subforums need pruning and the remaining ones to be highlighted. At the moments so many post in AIBU or Chat just because that's where the traffic is, and ultimately that results in AIBU being watered down with posts where AIBU isn't even a question being asked. I would also support stricter moderation to move posts to the correct sections, which has the dual advantage of moving posts to where people are better placed to respond and also not posting rubbish people aren't interested in in the high traffic areas.

Also agree with an edit function. Happy to have the full history for the post displayed, but when I see a typo as soon as I click send and I know there is a solution for that on pretty much every other web forum it's pretty infuriating.

I'll add a few:

Improvement to Quote Function
It seems utterly bonkers that I will get altered when I am tagged, but if someone quotes my post (usually trying to initiate a dialogue with me) there is no alert. And then when I do finally see the post, I can’t quote the post which quoted me to reply, so I'm left with the old fashioned way of manually bolding the post and tagging the poster (at least they'll see that I suppose).

Archiving
Many other websites won’t let you post on threads which haven’t been active for six months or a year, and that really makes sense. Earlier this week in Baby Names someone posted on about seven threads from around ten years ago saying Charlotte is a garbage name. The posts were deleted and the user was banned but that still means so many bumped threads which people are still responding to giving advice about naming a child who is about to start secondary school. I haven’t met a single poster who is happy to have a zombie thread revived on any board.

Responses from MN and Transparency
When issues are raised on Site Stuff people just get a stack “thanks for the feedback, we’ll pass it on”. Personally I’ve been translating that as “don’t care, bye”. I asked several times on a thread of mine if there was any feedback to my question which was apparently raised with no response. If we could have updates on what Mumsnet are working on then that would give some insight, for those who are interested. Otherwise it seems the site is happy just where it is, which is ok if you at least acknowledge you aren’t interested in feedback!

Thanks so much!

I really like your proposal for notifications about quotes, which is something I've often thought of, but I've never seen it anywhere, so I assume it's difficult, and it didn't even occur to me to mention it.

I like Mumsnet. There seems to be something for everyone and if you’re not interested in being regarded as a pedant than just don’t go there. I’ve never been to it but after this thread I am intrigued and might visit it soon just to have a look.

I like the sense of being part of a conversation on Mumsnet so I agree with pp about not having indenting. As for a like button, it’s a shortcut to normal conversation. I like that if you want someone to know that you like what they posted you tell them.

I think Mumsnet has grown and made changes over the years. I don’t remember there always being a see all button for the Op. I think it’s fairly recent. I love using that if the thread has become several pages long.

As for editing. I use preview and edit my post (as mentioned by pp a few pages back) and it is very helpful. It appears exactly as if you had pressed post and it is amazing how I see all the mistakes I made that I didn’t see in the comment box while typing.

Being able to edit later poses the problem of an Op or pp changing what they wrote if they don’t like the replies they got. Then previous replies won’t make sense because the Op or pp has changed. That would be a problem for the flow of conversation. So, not sure how that could be avoided if we had an edit function.

Thank you, OP. I also think UX is vital feedback and I know you wrote this for the mods.

I don’t agree with all it of it. I love that MN doesn’t have nested replies; that drives me round the bend. But I really don’t see why your views need to be met with hostility. What I’d most like to change about MN is the unnecessarily abrasive approach to be honest.

The things I totally agree with are that some section headings are really unhelpful when new or newish posters are trying to find things. Body and Soul feels particularly unhelpful given that relationships, miscarriage and bereavement are such useful topics, and also that they’re then stuck in there next to Style and Beauty. It may be MN history (and I’ve been here a long long time) but it really doesn’t make much sense, and I worry that some very vulnerable people end up posting in AIBU when they should be in gentler waters.

And the inability to go back from a sub-forum into the main forum (eg Higher Education to Education) really annoys me. It feels so clunky.

@toastofthetown

I agree with a lot of those. I've been on Mumsnet since threads showed newest to oldest the improvements in that time have been pretty minimal. For Books forum I agree; I had no idea where to post about books on the mobile site. On the desktop it's ok because it's the one I didn't need to click on more to reach (and I agree with your point on more, especially for the more niche boards. Who would have guessed Weddings was in Fun and Games?!). I think the subforums need pruning and the remaining ones to be highlighted. At the moments so many post in AIBU or Chat just because that's where the traffic is, and ultimately that results in AIBU being watered down with posts where AIBU isn't even a question being asked. I would also support stricter moderation to move posts to the correct sections, which has the dual advantage of moving posts to where people are better placed to respond and also not posting rubbish people aren't interested in in the high traffic areas.

Also agree with an edit function. Happy to have the full history for the post displayed, but when I see a typo as soon as I click send and I know there is a solution for that on pretty much every other web forum it's pretty infuriating.

I'll add a few:

Improvement to Quote Function
It seems utterly bonkers that I will get altered when I am tagged, but if someone quotes my post (usually trying to initiate a dialogue with me) there is no alert. And then when I do finally see the post, I can’t quote the post which quoted me to reply, so I'm left with the old fashioned way of manually bolding the post and tagging the poster (at least they'll see that I suppose).

Archiving
Many other websites won’t let you post on threads which haven’t been active for six months or a year, and that really makes sense. Earlier this week in Baby Names someone posted on about seven threads from around ten years ago saying Charlotte is a garbage name. The posts were deleted and the user was banned but that still means so many bumped threads which people are still responding to giving advice about naming a child who is about to start secondary school. I haven’t met a single poster who is happy to have a zombie thread revived on any board.

Responses from MN and Transparency
When issues are raised on Site Stuff people just get a stack “thanks for the feedback, we’ll pass it on”. Personally I’ve been translating that as “don’t care, bye”. I asked several times on a thread of mine if there was any feedback to my question which was apparently raised with no response. If we could have updates on what Mumsnet are working on then that would give some insight, for those who are interested. Otherwise it seems the site is happy just where it is, which is ok if you at least acknowledge you aren’t interested in feedback!

This is a good example of my point that we should be able to edit down what we quote, because I have to waste all this space just to highlight one small point:

The comment that AIBU and Chat get overloaded fits right in with my idea that the site shouldn't try right up from to funnel people to the forums that are already most trafficked!

100% no to a like button. It would really change the tone for the worse.

No to edits - people need to learn to die by the sword.

yes to improving searches

@JaneJeffer

It's a lot simpler to follow a thread if replies are indented/nested. I disagree.

Do you have any example to back that up, where replies are indented and you consider it harder to follow? I just can't imagine that.

@endofagain

You can preview what you have written befire posting. I like the comfortable, conversational style of MN. The standard of discussion on many of the boards is extremely high. Like buttons and emoticons of the type seen elsewhere would spoil that I think. The MN emoticons have class IMO. I get the feeling the OP hasn't been on MN very long. There are loads of other chat places. MN is unique. It would be a shame to change it.

Excuse, but I think I'll disagree. Obviously, different forums play out differently, but I'm finding very little discussion, and instead mostly Q&A. Many forums are just asking for recommendations.

Funny, I don't know how long I've been on MN, but most discussions boards have profiles where it will tell you things like exactly how long the person has been around. It's handy.

@BIWI

I don't know why you say you're not an experienced poster - AS shows you've been here since 2013.

I should start with an apology. I never expected so many replies, and just didn't have time to read them all at once. So I keep coming back. But I lose track. (It occurs to me that another tweak might be to number posts, as some forums do, so I could remember I left off at #53.) Anyway, forgive me if I accidentally respond twice if I've forgotten.

Here, just wanted to say that I meant I wasn't "experienced" in terms of using a great many of the forums, or coming daily, or exploring some of the features that are hidden or unexplained.

@saraclara, the system won't let me quote you (another problem with the system?), but I just wanted to say I agree with your comments, especially this:

If you design a website, you should be ensuring that people who come to it for the first time CAN navigate it. It should be intuitive, not quirky to use. Otherwise they lose interest and leave.

@Thurlow

I hate indented conversations on other forums. It makes it feel like you can only reply to one poster or point - MN is a conversation amongst many posters, so the indents would just ruin it

This puzzles me. When there are indentations, you simply post the reply to the OP. Then it's for everyone in the thread.

Sorry, but to me, most MN conversations aren't at all among many posters. Most tend to be one person replying to the OP, who has posted a question.

@SoupDragon

If you design a website, you should be ensuring that people who come to it for the first time CAN navigate it. It should be intuitive, not quirky to use. Otherwise they lose interest and leave.

And yet MN has lots and lots of members who didn't leave... 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, but we have no way of knowing how many people gave up entirely, or spend more of their time with other forums. Maybe MN regulars are only a tiny fraction of the people who arrive here.

@SoupDragon

But wouldn't you still perhaps agree that terms like "Pedant" may not be a great idea? Some of the forum names have a negative connotation, and maybe should be re-titled. No one wants to be considered a pedant.

"Pedants' Corner" Is exactly what was asked for though so actually, people do want to be considered a pedant.

Who exactly asked for it?

Most people would consider it an insult.

@Waahingwashingwashing

I don’t like the indents either. I tried Reddit but it annoyed me. I prefer the way it is here.

I started to look into Reddit, and it seemed awful - but the problem certainly isn't indentation.

I think your suggestions were certainly hoping to bring the forum up to the 21st century! I was using a forum for years and was horrified when they changed it, but it's much much more easy to use. It uses a platform called "Invision". Here's an example. (Australian pet site)

I would like to only be able to quote sections of posts, rather than the whole lot, but to be honest I just use the old convention of italicising the bit I want.

I don't find the search bad, but I suspect that's because I'm usually searching for a thread I took part in rather than "anything on the topic of xxx". Filtering by board is really useful (although a bit annoying that every local site comes in the middle under L!).

Sorry, but to me, most MN conversations aren't at all among many posters. Most tend to be one person replying to the OP, who has posted a question.

I think it depends which threads you're on MsAmerica. The Strictly Come Dancing threads for example are definitely very chatty, and lots of us re-join them every year. We even lobbied for our own emoji at one point — the glitterball.

@SoupDragon

A like button. When I was new to Mumsnet, I, too thought this would be a good idea. Then, I spent time on Reddit and realised that I was actually trying to post for approval as a result of the like function

I found Reddit was a very good example of how "like" type buttons can be used for bullying.

While it's true that some people might angle for "likes," isn't it also true that some people angle just for responses? Is it really so different?

But mainly, it has seemed to me that bullying is more a result of a dislike-button, rather than a like-button.

@SoupDragon

For instance, it's a lot simpler to click on an emoticon instead of copy-pasting.

So click on a emoji. I think even my MacBook has them although I usually use my iPad now.

It's a lot simpler to follow a thread if replies are indented/nested

It really isn't. It stifles the flow as the conversation gets broken up into defined little segments. Plus it's ugly and cluttered.

!. You can't click on an emoji here, as far as I can tell.

1. I think I'll disagree about indenting. Threads often do flow into different tangents, and indenting allows you to more easily make sense of them. And, sorry, but I find MN more cluttered than most other forums to begin with. I think indenting de-clutters.

@SoupDragon

Thinking about the "like"button thing' it works well on somewhere that tends to be fairly placid like Ravelry (although I think some groups/discussions can get heated!) but in somewhere as, ahem, volatile as MN it would very easily descend into the "bullying" I saw on Reddit.

Now, that's really interesting. I consider MN to be very placid. I must be hanging out in the wrong forums here.

@0blio

MN is unique. It would be a shame to change it.

^^This. I don't understand this need to change something that is so popular and well used - have you seen the stats?

A quick look at the home page would tell you this:

Twenty years later and who'd have thought it would come to this? Mumsnet is now the UK’s biggest network for parents, with around 7 million unique visitors per month clocking up around 100 million page views.

I keep seeing people saying they don't want to change anything, not a thing, but I wonder if they slogged through my suggestions (admittedly, longer than most people can bear).

For instance, can you really come up with a good reason not to include the title line in the preview, so you can catch typos there, too? Can you really come up with a good reason not to show the name of the OP as well as the most recent poster?

All of modern life is thinking about improving things, in every facet of our lives.

@ShowOfHands

I like MN as it is.

I would like people to be refused the option to quote the op on a thread as it irritates me and is wholly pointless.

And I'd like a gingerbread emoticon please and thank you.

All the stuff the op dislikes, I mostly like so no thank you to nearly all of it. Can you not stay logged in and never look at the homepage. I haven't looked at the homepage for 15 years.

You don't want any of my changes, not even the tiny ones, for streamlining and clarity, like including the title in the preview or showing the OP of a thread in the list - but you want a gingerbread emoticon?