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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ - I hope you are going to release your own statement on GMB Union

131 replies

OvaHere · 26/05/2020 10:48

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3920159-GMB-Statement-on-transphobia?pg=2

I'm horrified how little their commitment to women's employment rights matter during a global pandemic. It smacks of paying lip service to something they clearly think so little of if it can be rescinded on the flimsiest of accusations.

It's a common theme for men to punish women as a class for the perceived transgressions of a few. Almost biblical and reminiscent of the 'original sin' narrative.

Not only are GMB Union withdrawing legal advice from women here who discuss feminism they are also withdrawing it from every demographic of women who use this site.

I'm truly appalled at this behaviour whilst the country is in crisis. I hope you push back officially against this. It goes way beyond a company that chooses not to advertise - it's the withdrawing of legal advice for women who 'might' have committed wrongthink.

OP posts:
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CaraDune · 28/05/2020 18:07

@RufustheLanglovingreindeer

we will do our damnedest to find alternative experts to answer the queries posted on the thread

Thank you

And another vote of thanks from me.
BringbackLang · 28/05/2020 18:30

Another one here saying thank you @JustineMumsnet

OvaHere · 28/05/2020 18:45

@JustineMumsnet

Quick update. We've heard back from the General Secretary of the GMB saying that they will review their decision to suspend activity on Monday, June 1 and that my mail has been circulated everyone who's involved in the decision. If they decide not to continue with the Q&A we will do our damnedest to find alternative experts to answer the queries posted on the thread.
Thank you for the update.
OP posts:
Datun · 28/05/2020 19:31

@JustineMumsnet

I hope you showed them who is behind this. The small coterie of people who have quite openly said over and over that they want to shut the site down. That's it's nothing really to do with GMB, just a vendetta towards a women's website.

JustHereWithMyPopcorn · 28/05/2020 19:46

Thanks for the update JustineMumsnet. 👍🏻

Lordfrontpaw · 28/05/2020 19:53

I hope they explain themselves if they come back. I really do.

BoreOfWhabylon · 28/05/2020 21:10

[quote Datun]@JustineMumsnet

I hope you showed them who is behind this. The small coterie of people who have quite openly said over and over that they want to shut the site down. That's it's nothing really to do with GMB, just a vendetta towards a women's website.[/quote]
Yes. And thank you Justine Flowers

MoleSmokes · 29/05/2020 03:23

Quick update. We've heard back from the General Secretary of the GMB saying that they will review their decision to suspend activity on Monday, June 1 and that my mail has been circulated everyone who's involved in the decision. If they decide not to continue with the Q&A we will do our damnedest to find alternative experts to answer the queries posted on the thread.

Excellent! Thank you, Justine!

I wonder if that explains the avalanche of posts by a handful of members (if that many) desperately trying to "prove" that Mumsnet is transphobic, using the tried and tested method of, "I say, therefore it is true"!

We think we live in a free society yet here we have it:

  • the top bods of the third biggest union in the UK and the most influential site for parents in the UK - mostly mums - having to diplomatically negotiate behind the scenes about an exercise of benefit to working women during a pandemic.

Courtesy of "the most vulnerable and oppressed minority in society" (allegedly).

And people are kicking off about Dominic Cumings having undue influence??

Attaching a picture of that Transgender Umbrella as a reminder of the assorted collection of kinksters who hold sway these days.

Transsexuals are only 1% and most of them are opposed to the "queering" agenda that insultingly groups them with men who identify and dress as 6 year old girls or who stroll the streets at Pride trailing fake fox-tails attached to butt-plugs.

Most of the people deploring "transphobia" have no idea that the accusation is used to silence discussion about a movement that aims to mainstream and normalise a fetishistic and violent subculture that targets women and children.

All that it takes is just to ignore these people and get on with serving the interests of members - which will include genuine transsexuals who are no more interested than the rest of us in promoting that corrupt, privileged shite.

MNHQ - I hope you are going to release your own statement on GMB Union
thecatfromjapan · 29/05/2020 04:54

I'm really angry about this.

To have prioritised an issue that is a tiny fragment of MN at the expense of reaching women - during a pandemic when reaching women is hard - is just the craziest thing.

I am actually absolutely disgusted.

The GMB are supposed to be one of the more sensible unions - but this is crazy behaviour.

I was hoping we might be getting past this. But no.

AwkwardSquad · 29/05/2020 05:18

GMB doesn’t have a great history when it comes to supporting women’s issues (particularly not low paid BAME women) from Grunwick onwards. They protected men over women when it came to equal pay until they were taken to court for sex discrimination and their CEO Tim Roache stepped down recently amongst claims of some pretty unpleasant behaviour. Not the first time a GMB leader has resigned with sexism being cited as a reason, either, Robert Parker being another example. Systemic sexism?

brodies.com/binformed/legal-updates/gmb-union-facing-4000-indirect-sex-discrimination-claims

thecatfromjapan · 29/05/2020 05:39

Systemic sexism with a big dose of losing touch with actual, real people, I think.

How many women on here have trans issues front and foremost in their minds right now? Over and above what is happening with regards to their work?

Very few.

It's worth remembering that FWR was given its own space partly because a lot of women here didn't want trans issues all over Mumsnet.

To seize that one issue, and prioritise it over reaching women is just mind-bogglingly out of touch.

It screams, 'We care more about pleasing graduate women types more than giving legal advice to working women.'

And here's a thing: that outreach by the GMB was as much about increasing visibility and membership as it was about giving legal advice.

There isn't a union in the U.K. that hasn't realised Coronavirus is a recruitment opportunity. It's a once in a generation chance to recruit members and demonstrate the advantages of being in a union.

But the GMB are willing to sacrifice that for ... what?

Some graduates in their organisation, I suspect, who have decided MN is a Bad Thing.

It's the politics of Twitter and outraged Harry Potter fans.

And it looks bad. It is bad. Women who may have decided that they, personally, can't be doing with the trans debate because they have serious issues going on with their working lives now know the GMB thinks those serious issues with their working lives are - to the GMB - actually secondary to trans issues. An issue which, ironically, many women have decided is not something they have the indulgence of security to give attention to.

How much of a 'fuck you' is that?

Who needs a union that self-absorbed?

You need your union to be able to fight your corner, in a pandemic that is disproportionately attacking the least economically secure.

Not one that pisses about with stuff that gets 'liked' on Twitter.

It's just ... crazy.

Compromise. Politics is about pragmatism and compromise and alliance-building. And then going all out to work for those you represent.

I just do not understand the thinking behind this. I know there is a problem with the radical disjunction between those who are employed by unions - the wages those people receive, their job security - and those they purport to represent; I know there is therefore a problem with the standpoint from which those employed by unions view the workers but ... even given all that, this is really, really clumsy.

thecatfromjapan · 29/05/2020 05:40

Shouldn't read 'graduate women types'.
Should read 'graduate woke types'.

popehilarious · 29/05/2020 10:24

And re the trans umbrella diagram, a large number of MN posters have said that the one or other of the labels given as being trans identities apply to them. I'm assuming that the GMB does need this pointing out?

MyEyesightIsBadLetsGoForADrive · 29/05/2020 11:11

Women who may have decided that they, personally, can't be doing with the trans debate because they have serious issues going on with their working lives now know the GMB thinks those serious issues with their working lives are - to the GMB - actually secondary to trans issues. An issue which, ironically, many women have decided is not something they have the indulgence of security to give attention to."
*
*
How much of a 'fuck you' is that?

Well said.

Ironically I have recently been regretting the loss of my activity outside the house to raise awareness of these issues, as I am shielding. I have also not been as engaged online as, as you say so well cat, there is some other stuff going on! Even more ironically the major worry for us and taking up my time atm is lack of employment protection and shielding - which I raised with GMB. But now they won't answer me (or any of us here with similar huge problems) because a small vocal minority has told them to ignore me.

Fuck your job and your families' income and feeding your DC, you don't get any advice from the people who are meant to support you because thoughtcrime.

All this is just yet another kick in the teeth that a small vocal minority are actually using and exploiting this awful situation to trample over us.

It's the lowest of the low and it's fucking shameful. How can people not see this for what it is? They must, surely. I feel I spend my time thinking "well that is another spectacular own goal showing them for what they are" and still they keep coming...

Lordfrontpaw · 29/05/2020 11:15

I worry that they will not come back because they will potentially be told to ‘do one’ by posters on the back of this. They have shown their hand somewhat and are definitely on the back foot here.

I’m visualising 12m women sat in front of phone/iPads and laptop screens, arms folded, lips pursed and heads tilted...

Iwalkinmyclothing · 29/05/2020 11:24

Whether or not you agree with everything that's posted on Mumsnet, people are entitled to freedom of speech - you'd have thought a Trade Union would recognise that.

No, we aren't entitled to that at all. We are entitled to freedom of expression, said freedom subject to certain limitations. I would imagine a Trades Union understands that, because they take the time to see what the law actually says rather than assuming it is what they would like it to be.

I'm not taking a position on GMB's actions or MN's stance here or anything else, but whenever I see the blithe assumption that we have a right to freedom of speech trotted out, it irritates me.

MoleSmokes · 29/05/2020 14:42

Pelleas - "Whether or not you agree with everything that's posted on Mumsnet, people are entitled to freedom of speech - you'd have thought a Trade Union would recognise that."

Iwalkinmyclothing - "No, we aren't entitled to that at all. We are entitled to freedom of expression, said freedom subject to certain limitations."

The contrast between "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression" without any further explanation always reads like you are permitted to mime something that you are not to say out loud.

"Human Rights Act 1998 Article 10"

Freedom of expression

1 Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2 The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/42/schedule/1/part/I/chapter/9

"Limits on Freedom of Expression: United Kingdom"

"The UK provides for freedom of expression as a qualified right that may be restricted in certain circumstances as prescribed by law. For any law restricting an individual’s freedom of expression, various criteria must be met. The UK has laws in place that operate to prevent people from heckling speakers, but these are not frequently implemented. The main laws that appear to be used against hecklers are those aimed to preserve public order.

Foreign broadcasters operating in the UK and broadcasting to UK audiences must be licensed by the UK’s communication regulator, Ofcom. In order to obtain a license, the broadcaster must agree to license conditions and to comply with the Broadcasting Code. If a broadcaster fails to abide by these conditions or the Code and laws, Ofcom may take action, including issuing its findings publicly, imposing a financial penalty, or suspending or revoking the broadcaster’s license in the UK. "

Continued at:
www.loc.gov/law/help/freedom-expression/uk.php

"Defamation laws take effect"

Libel laws in England and Wales are being significantly reformed from tomorrow to provide clearer, better protection for people publicly expressing opinions.

Published 31 December 2013
From: Ministry of Justice and Shailesh Vara MP

The Defamation Act 2013 reverses the chilling effect on freedom of expression current libel law has allowed, and the prevention of legitimate debate we have seen in the past. For example, some journalists, scientists or academics have faced unfair legal threats for fairly criticising a company, person or product.

For the first time a new serious harm threshold has been set to help people understand when claims should be brought and discourage trivial claims that harm freedom of speech and unnecessarily take up court time.

Justice Minister Shailesh Vara said:

The introduction of these new measures will make it harder for wealthy people or companies to bully or silence those who may have fairly criticised them or their products.

As a result of these new laws, anyone expressing views and engaging in public debate can do so in the knowledge that the law offers them stronger protection against unjust and unfair threats of legal action.

These laws coming into force represent the end of a long and hard-fought battle to ensure a fair balance is struck between the right to freedom of expression and people’s ability to protect their reputation.

The Defamation Act contains a series of measures that include:

  • Protection for scientists and academics publishing peer reviewed material in scientific and academic journals
  • Protection for those who are publishing material on a matter of public interest where they reasonably believe that publication is in the public interest
  • Introducing a new process which should help a person who feels an online statement is defamatory to resolve the dispute directly with the person who has posted the statement. This offers better protection for the operators of websites hosting user-generated content, provided they follow the new process. New regulations have been introduced to ensure that this process operates effectively
  • A single publication rule to prevent repeated claims against a publisher about the same material
  • Action to address libel tourism by tightening the test for claims involving those with little connection to England and Wales being brought before our courts
  • Greater protection for secondary publishers including booksellers and newsagents by removing the possibility of an action for defamation being brought against them if it is reasonably practicable for an action to be brought against the primary publisher.

The old laws on libel had been criticised for being outdated, costly and unfair - the new law seeks to ensure effective protection for freedom of expression and encourages open and honest public debate, whilst still protecting those whose reputation has been unjustly attacked.

www.gov.uk/government/news/defamation-laws-take-effect

"Hate speech vs. free speech: the UK laws"

What is the law on hate speech?

"A number of different UK laws outlaw hate speech. Among them is Section 4 of the Public Order Act 1986 (POA), which makes it an offence for a person to use “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour that causes, or is likely to cause, another person harassment, alarm or distress”. This law has been revised over the years to include language that is deemed to incite “racial and religious hatred”, as well as “hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation” and language that “encourages terrorism”.

The Terrorism Act 2006 criminalises “encouragement of terrorism” which includes making statements that glorify terrorist acts.

Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 makes it illegal to send a message via a public electronic communications network that is considered grossly offensive, or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character.

“This offence is incredibly broad and has been used to address jovial, albeit misjudged communications – it carries huge implications for freedom of expression,” says justice and freedom campaign group Liberty."

Why is the debate so controversial?

"Criminalising the incitement of violence or threats “can be seen to be a justifiable limit on freedom of expression”, says Liberty. What is controversial “is the criminalisation of language (or behaviour) which may be unpleasant, may cause offence but which is not inciting violence, criminality etc”, the organisation adds.

Writing for Prospect magazine, Hugh Tomlinson QC argues that the problem lies with the lack of a UK constitution. “Free speech does not, historically, have the same primacy under English law [as the US],” he explains.

“A proper ‘written’ constitution sets limits on the powers of the institutions of government, but the loose and flexible set of rules that is described as Britain’s unwritten constitution sets no such limits.”

Writing in The Spectator, Lionel Shriver says the UK should follow the US playbook.

“Because the alternative is what the UK has now, and it will only get worse: government systematically legislating not just what we say but what we may believe.”

From:
www.theweek.co.uk/97552/hate-speech-vs-free-speech-the-uk-laws

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 29/05/2020 20:16

Prawnofthepatriarchy I just spotted your post about caring for your dying Mum. Flowers

MoleSmokes · 30/05/2020 01:49

Oh Good Grief! I missed that too!

Prawn my thoughts are with you. I know it is hell! Flowers

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 30/05/2020 12:41

Thanks for the sympathy. Much appreciated. My mum is dying as a side effect of the pandemic. She fell. If she'd been taken to hospital straight away she might have recovered. As it is, the delay in admitting her caused irreparable damage. She's largely paralyzed from the neck down now. She's amazingly upbeat - just so grateful to be home after two weeks in hospital. She knows she's dying and has said she will not go back to hospital for any reason.

She has two carers four times a day. At times she's needed intimate care at night that I'm not physically strong enough to provide. Watching my brother provide it with such tenderness has left me in awe. Some men might make her feel embarrassed. Not him.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 30/05/2020 13:01

So sorry prawn

Your mum sounds awesome and your brother too

CaraDune · 30/05/2020 13:31

Prawn - Flowers

thecatfromjapan · 30/05/2020 15:12

Prawn 💐
I'm so sorry to hear this.
I'm so glad for her that she's so loved.
But I am so sorry this has happened.
Love and strength to you.
Xx

EmpressLangClegInChair · 30/05/2020 15:27

I’m so sorry, Prawn 💐

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