You can’t be anti-DV and leave this victim-blaming bilge up MNHQ

[TottieandMarchpane]

You’re not really taking the line that this is “in the spirit”?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3715190-To-think-many-women-shouldve-thought-more-carefully-about-who-to-procreate-with?pg=2&order=

Shit not shot.

But she wasn't blaming women for mens behaviour.
But in some (not all) cases women do choose to be in relationships with shit partners and choose to have children with them. Providing there is no abuse, coercive control or other issues then surely people need to take ownership of the choices they make .

She was blaming women for failing to predict and swerve men’s behaviour.

But, more than that, as @AnyFucker says, so were a lot of regulars on that thread.

I felt blamed and judged

We clearly read it differently. 🤷

I guess that's the risk with forums like this.

The thread's about fathers, not partners.

I wasn't blaming women and neither were most other contributors - we all made the same point, which is that with parenting (as opposed to partnering) you're unable to tell until it's too late.

Crucially, there are loads of reasons in society now why the tipping point does come too late.

There are no longer male rites of passage into adulthood - where the man has to prove himself looking after a wife before he gets the added prize of DC, for instance.

Young women are told that they have to pay half for everything (despite being paid less) and are thus economically independent from their partner whether they like it or not. The woman is tested madly for her economic skills, homemaking skills, beauty etc etc.

The man ain't asked for anything - indeed, he gets half his bills paid, for the first time ever. But that arrangement is the current status quo, so all looks fine and dandy. They decide on the next step.

Until the baby is born. And he has to step up. Well, step up a bit. When he doesn't, things go wrong for women.

All problems at this point are key feminist points - women's economic inequality, lack of childcare, residency automatically going to the woman, the lack of accountability in male parenting time and maintenance, yada yada. None of these issues can be fixed by individuals - you need state policy.

Idiots have blamed individual women for men's bad behaviour for millennia. Which shows you how well that tactic works to fix it.

Of course individuals - both sexes - make bad choices about partners every day of the week. Look at the divorce rates.

It's much harder to get rid of your child's father, or specifically, to get rid of the hole a bad father creates for both of you. You can, if required, boot the father out physically (invariably an improvement) but you can't ignore the needs gap a failed father creates, whether he's there or not.

Victim blaming or infantilising women...

Hmmm? Which is it to be?

Alternatively we could expect mothers to try and protect their kids.

And yes, it is more down to mothers than fathers. That's where the buck stops.

Don't like that? Don't have kids.

I took the op to be directed at the authors of threads on here where she's not long met the man, so far has no real ties to him or not married, no children, not yet or only just started living with him, but is posting that he's out all the time, won't help with chores, sits up all night playing video games (basically red flags aplenty) but she's thinking about having a baby with him.

Posters reply multiple times warning against it and each time the op replies but and gives 100nreasons why she'll change him, he'll change when the baby comes etc.

That was who I took the thread to be directed at.

I get so annoyed at people who basically try to infantilise women - you see it so.often on here - man who's having an affair is a low life scum bag, wife told to ltb, no excuse for doing it no matter what. Woman posts to say she's having an affair and is told it's not her fault her husband must have caused it, don't tell husband just keep it a secret, she couldn't help it, if her husband had been a better partner she wouldn't have done it.

It's ridiculous. I don't need people.making excuses for me. I'm responsible for my choices in life, be they good or bad just as men are.

@tumbleisatwat you sound deranged.

The buck stops with mothers? Why?

I might believe that @TequilaPilates were it not for the phrase “many women” in the title and then the first sentence of the OP “ Most of what you see on Mumsnet is women moaning and groaning about the ignorant/ selfish/ lazy/ entitled men they've chosen to father their children.”

The more I read it, the more misogynistic it sounds.

The man ain't asked for anything - indeed, he gets half his bills paid, for the first time ever. But that arrangement is the current status quo, so all looks fine and dandy.

What do you mean with ' he gets half his bills paid'? Why are the bills only his? Are women so feeble in your mind that they can't be expected to pay a fair share of the bills they create? They're her bills too!

I agree that the OP in that thread wasn't blaming women for domestic violence. She was clearly talking about men who didn't pull their weight in normal household functioning. And she had a valid point.

People really read what they want to read, don't they?

I read that post and what I understood was this:

If you are in a relationship with a man and he is all the awful things you come in here complaining that he is, yet you both are planning on getting married and having kids. Who is to blame when you do marry and have kids and he is still the git he was before you got married and you are here complaining about the same thing?

You! You are to blame for staying in a relationship with red flags and not considering yourself worthy enough to leave before you got stuck in marriage.

You are to blame for what you are going through because the git already showed you his true colours and you didn't care to leave. So you had it coming. It didn't come as a surprise to you that he is a bastard, did it?

You are NOT to blame for him being a bastard. He was one before he met you and before you CHOSE to marry him and he is one now. If you knew his behaviour was that bad from the beginning and if you thought well enough of yourself, you should have left him and his stupidity before you CHOSE to bring children into the world to experience a git of a dad and a miserable mum fighting all the time about what could have been avoided if mum CHOSE differently!

So if the man forced you into the marriage and into getting pregnant in some way, then it's not your fault you're in the predicament but if he didn't, then you brought it upon yourself for making that choice voluntarily!

If he was a wonderful guy but changed after marriage or children, the situation you're in now is also not your fault because you didnt see it coming!

So those who feel personally attacked are either not understanding this or feel guilty!

I agree somewhat. My friend has a husband who has always been quite macho. He's never washed a plate in their house. When housework become overwhelming, he happily forked out for a cleaner. He isn't a complete bastard but he does believe in conjugal roles. He's proud that the only thing he's ever cooked is on a BBQ (badly too).

They've now had kids and of course, kids are 24/7 and overnight Nannies are out of their budget. I can't see why friend is surprised that she does all the night feeds/comforting or that he rarely changes a nappy. She knew who he was. He's blokey bloke and comes from a culture where men play with babies and hand them back to their mothers when they cry. I think she is unreasonable to expect different from him now.

The problem I have with the thread is that "entitled/ignorant/selfish/ lazy" is one of the hallmarks of an abusive relationship dynamic so this isn't excluding cases of DV, its actually describing them. Another point is that these "stupid women" who are choosing to have DC with an arsehole are being actively deceived by said arsehole and there are any number of reasons a woman may be vulnerable to this type of manipulation.

Of course it's very easy to see what's going on when dispassionately reading a thread from the privileged viewpoint of not having the same vulnerability as the OP. No one is saying woman should be 'infantilised' by not pointing out the huge string of red flags but to start a thread which essentially berates women and their life choices with absolutely no understanding of the dynamics that led them there is goady and judgemental and doesn't help anyone.

Situations like these are perpetuated by shame. Alot of posters called out the stupidity of women who go on to have multiple DC with an arsehole. Many times this happens because the women remains in active denial because the shaming they know they will face from society for choosing the wrong person and becoming a SP is too great. It's easier to believe a man when he says he will change than face this harsh reality. All that threads like this do is encourage women to become even further entrenched in this false belief system that society and their upbringing has taught them e.g relationships are hard work, men are blokes who can't handle childcare, men should be allowed hobbies so they dont cheat etc etc.

The only way to tackle this problem is to educate woman about the red flags of abuse, the common manipulation tactics used etc., to end the shaming of women and for society to hold men accountable. If men were held to even half the standard we expect of women then we might be getting somewhere but still threads like these appear which put the blame squarely on the women for her "poor decision making".

Even leaving aside cases of DA, “Got a shot partner? Your fault, lady!” isn’t a very supportive or empathetic message, is it?

Women aren't helpless either though. I think there's a risk that by saying there's nothing women can do about it if they find themselves with a bad partner, other than have kids with said partner, you are in effect disempowering and infanitlising them. We need to tell women that they're in charge of their own destinies, or they won't believe they have the power to shape them. Yes, in an ideal world, men wouldn't be feckless parents, but that's not the world we live in.

No one is saying to women that there's nothing they can do but have children with a shit partner. Who is saying this? Please give me one example where this has happened? Having compassion for someone is not the same as infantilisation.

The response on MN is usually a unanimous LTB but alot of the time women in this situation benefit from those who take the time to actually go through how their situation is abusive/controlling or has red flags written all over it. People make the assumption that this is blindingly obvious to everyone but that simply isn't the case. It isn't as simple as women meeting an arsehole and deciding to have DC and to hell with the consequences. They are being actively deceived through often very complex manipulation tactics and providing them with the information to deal with this is empowerment, not infantilisation.

Yes it is frustrating when someone is unable to see how unhealthy their situation is but ultimately it is their choice to make and there are alot of reasons why they make that decision. I have seen so many threads where posters say "see you in a few months when you are pregnant and stuck", almost revelling in the inevitable rather than showing compassion when they eventually do realise the reality of their situation and reach out for help.

When has the "I told you so" mentality ever helped anyone? Its gloaty, smug, goady and unacceptable in nearly every area of life except apparently this one where it's spun as being a form of empowerment for women. Its complete bullshit!

@jaffacakes

The post I was responding to quoted leaving aside cases of DV so we're leaving aside cases of DV. As such, my response was not about DV, rendering your response to my response somewhat irrelevant.

I am with you OP, and anyfucker (which surprises me )

I have just been on a thread where a posyer made a point about the very thread and its victim-blaming attitude that you have queried, and rightly so.

I have just been saying exactly the same thing in defence of womens choices and how they have options removed in DV.

Its not as simple as it looks from the outside to others who can just judge so quickly and say ltb.

DA stats prove over and over that it isn't a simple,but very complex and damaging dynamic, that from the outside looks so easy.

Women choosing be killed, or their dc abused, when surviving you have limited choices about how to survive minute by minute.

Leaving risks lives. Choices are gone.

I get that people don't always understand it, it is complex, and the bully relies heavily on victim being trauma bonded to him and in a state of inability to think clearly any more or make decisions other than how to get through each minute or understand why they are to blame for it all.

DMs do kill themselves because of it, feeling like it all their fault and therefore if they goeveryone else will be ok.

It's so sad.

The OP from that thread hasn't been back.

I'm glad to see it raised here as it absolutely conflicts with the ethical stance that MN had declared in believing and supporting victims of it.

PP talked of infantalising women, but DA women are recognised as vulnerable as a result of the damage da causes to their sense of themselves, relationships, men and the world.

They do need a lot of suppprt and validation to realise they didn't cause abuse or make it worse.

It happened because he's abusive, and he doesn't want you to know, or to leave him.

Cults are the same and also rely on personality assasination, isolation and brainwashing. Same as bullies.

The grooming starts early.

Roly
Do you think women make choices to be in abusive relationships, and are free to choose as they wish though?

The whole point of abuse is controlling the woman, by whatever means hits the hardest, including destroying dc psyches into the bargain when they are emotional or literal punchbags to make the woman toe the line.

Do you think women make choices to be in abusive relationships, and are free to choose as they wish though?

But people aren't talking about those in abusive relationships though are they? Or do you class men who won't do the washing up or load the washing machine as abusive?

When I read the op I was thinking about posts where women are referring to a recent relationship where they are noticing some behaviours that the man is doing and are asking for opinions.

No abuse, no ties to keep them in the relationship. Just things like already has 3 kids that he doesn't see or pay for - I'm thinking of having a baby with him because his ex is a harridan and it's not his fault or he takes his washing home to his mum every week and doesn't know how to make a cup of tea - shall I marry him. Posts like those where the poster is making a free choice to get more deeply involved with a man that is going to be a shit partner and a rubbish dad. That's not the same as blaming women for domestic abuse is it?

@RolytheRhino but surely you can give women who you claim you want to empower and not infanticilise enough credit to think there must be something else going on here rather than women actively deciding to have DC with a shitbag? DV is about much more than physical abuse. Gaslighting, manipulation, fucked up power dynamics (which being entitled/ignorant/selfish/ lazy all fall into) are all forms of emotional abuse. Women are manipulated into these situations. Even if you see threads on here where the OP is defending said shitbag, its obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that there is much more to the situation if the woman is believing the lies.

RolytheRhino but surely you can give women who you claim you want to empower and not infanticilise enough credit to think there must be something else going on here rather than women actively deciding to have DC with a shitbag?

I have seen cases where there is no abuse but women (and men) still stay with an unsuitable partner. Some prefer to be with a lazy arse than alone, some want kids so badly that they don't hold high standards, some have low self esteem and don't believe they can do better, some want the financial benefits of being in a partnership above all else, some genuinely don't think men should be expected to contribute, some believe the premise of romcoms such as knocked up, that fatherhood will suddenly change a man, some even try to use having kids as a way to fix a relationship. There are many reasons, aside from abuse, that women might stay with an unsuitable father for their kids.