In response to 'to think some mumsnetters have a problem with blackwomen

[Fatshedra]

MN could make a rule that all threads about people in the limelight that the poster hasn't met in their life and is never going to meet in their life and is therefore making judgements on on the strength of their race, what they read about them or their family in the DM, some other spurious feeling or nonsensical judgement of them, should be moved to a people in the limelight thread which sensible people who don't have inexplicable dislike or hatred can easily ignore. So all the biased posters can stew on one thread out of the way of more rational users.

Ironically i decided against posting on this thread this morning and I've just gone back to the original thread and lo and behold, it's gone.

So much good discussion is stifled because somebody takes offence or gets deliberately antagonistic. If I wanted to close down a thread it seems I could just come on with a friend or two and be racist or use the wrong pronouns and the thread would disappear.

I actually don't even know what the point is in commenting on anything aside from style and beauty, relationships (depending on the type of relationship problem..) and anything related to weddings or office politics (but not hair). Everything else is risks being deleted. So before posting anywhere - even here - I assume it'll be deleted and have MASSIVELY reduced the amount of time I'm on this site as well as my contributions.

It is really infuriating to delete a thread that challenges racism as a "bunfight". Because grown women could not possibly have been seriously arguing against racism, ladies "bunfight".

The thread was not a TAAT at all. It was a thread about a million racist threads. But it was started by someone well known to challenge racism on MN. Someone who has real life experience of it, so must be hidden. Let's all pretend all the nice posters who do not like a certain sports star or royal genuinely only disagree about their style, it is nicer that way.

Easier to dismiss it as a bunfight, too.

I won't waste my time as every single thread of this nature always ends the same way

(MNHQ belittling the discussion as a "bunfight" and closing it down!)

Given these threads always attract the bourgeois "I'm not racist" racists, I'm inclined to stay well away.

Voicing an opinion isn't always racism.

While racism of course exists and mnhq delete comments that are either blatant or dog whistle racism, the fact is that just commenting negatively on a poc is not always racist based.

This was discussed earlier, Beyonce has declared her 7yr old DC to be an 'icon', that thread was deleted because it wasn't pleasant to comment negatively about a DC but calling a 7yr old an icon is incredibly unwise and actually quite disturbing. How is that racist? If Victoria Beckham said Harper was an icon i'd say exactly the same thing.

If Victoria Beckham said Harper was an icon i'd say exactly the same thing

BAME people in the public eye are disproportionately attacked on MN and held to higher standards. Anyone challenging that position is creating a bunfight and sooner or later the thread is deleted and racists comments along with it.

There are posters here who routinely post rascist dog whistling but so long as the whole thread is deleted they get to hide behind the general "bunfight" tag and claim its nothing to do with them. They then continue to bleat about "pure blood princesses" and the like with apparent impunity. I have mostly given up reporting them.

I am also very tired of any thread trying to raise this issue being deleted as a TAAT or a bunfight rather than admit there is a problem and address that.

I don't expect MN to be a racism free zone - society isn't. But the idea that it isn't a significant problem here is delusional. If its not a problem why do so many posters NC to start these threads?

'Let's all pretend all the nice posters who do not like a certain sports star or royal genuinely only disagree about their style, it is nicer that way.'

Or, let's discuss issues like grown ups and accept that negative opinions do not always equal racism. When they do report and get them deleted?

Posters dont need to be 'nice' but they need to be sure comments are racist before they aggressively attack posters.

This is the thread I created. It was removed because it was deemed to be a TAAT and descended into a bunfight.

Could I ask @MNHQ what then they're going to do to deal with micro-aggressions and dog-whistle racism on their boards?

Can we never have a sensible discussion about race without it being deleted? I had no intention of delving into the threads I'd referenced but used them as examples as a fantastic trait of racism-deniers is that they ask you for 'proof'.

How otherwise could I have gone about that thread being shouted down by the deniers and not raising actual points of reference in other threads which lead to me making that thread?

At a certain point it becomes frustrating and demoralising.

At a certain point it becomes frustrating and demoralising.

Yes this. We already have whataboutery on this thread and its only eight posts in. We can't respond with specific threads becuase TAAT.

Its hard not assume there is no fucking point to it all.

@Getoffyorhighhorse. The problem with unconscious bias - which is a well documented neurobiological phenomenon - is that the person may genuinely think that they are only reacting to so and so's style or actions or whatever but in fact their reactions are heavily influenced by the race/sex/whatever of the person they are talking to.

I'll give an example I'm confronted with in my work - and to make it clear, I am absolutely not pretending that this is in any way similar to the unconscious bias that black people live with, I'm just chossing to talk about what I know.

I am a female scientist. Students and visitors regularly assume that I am either a secretary or an English teacher. No one ever assumes that my male colleagues are secretaries and there is nothing particularly secretarial about me. It is clear that all the people that make this assumption are doing to so because of unconscious sexism.

It is equally clear that if you asked any of them "do you think that woman cannot be scientists" they would have replied "of course not" and been genuinely shocked at the idea. Their belief that a woman in a maths lab is necessarily a secretary is entirely unconscious.

It irritates me to hell, but it is very minor compared with the unconscious bias that black women in particular have to deal with.

'The problem with unconscious bias - which is a well documented neurobiological phenomenon - is that the person may genuinely think that they are only reacting to so and so's style or actions or whatever but in fact their reactions are heavily influenced by the race/sex/whatever '

Of course and as women we deal with it daily. My point is if people aren't being offensive you can't shout racist. Debate isnt always easy, look at how if we even question trans issues it can get us labelled transphobes. Both sides need to educate themselves and debate intelligently. 'Fuck off you racist' when someone suggests a 7yr old DC isn't an icon is not helpful.

'Fuck off you racist' when someone suggests a 7yr old DC isn't an icon is not helpful.

No-one said this even on that thread. I took issue to a suggestion that a poster felt sorry for Blue Ivy because she looked like her father whom was described as a 'grouch' when further pushed. Racism doesn't always present itself in neatly packaged banana-throwing, monkey-chanting, N-word using ways as much as it used to - though it still does. But as I said on my thread using words like 'uppity' to describe black women is racist.

I am the first to say that if everything is racist then racism means nothing. But what with unfortunately being half black I am a lot more attuned to racism/micro-aggressions and dog-whistling than the average white person.

' I took issue to a suggestion that a poster felt sorry for Blue Ivy because she looked like her father whom was described as a 'grouch' when further pushed.'

He does look like a right sulky misery though!! that is how he comes across in the media aren't we allowed to say that? I'd rather look like beautiful Beyonce that him. You did say DFOD. It isn't a great way to debate is it? Opinions dont always equal racism or phobias. You don't have to be 'nice' just try to argue your point intelligently.

No-one said this even on that thread.

No they didn't that I saw. However making the claim knowing people can't check the thread, whilst declaiming the terrible prospect of white people feeling unable to criticise "bad" black people is as good a tactic as any to detract from the very real subject at hand.

'whilst declaiming the terrible prospect of white people feeling unable to criticise "bad" black people is as good a tactic as any to detract from the very real subject at hand.'

The 'very real subject at hand' is you can't accuse people of rascim without any evidence. Report racist comments, challenge people intelligently. It's not rocket science is it.

Racism*

“You need to” and “you have to” and “you must”. You can’t tell other posters how to behave, HighHorse. Well, you can, but they will just ignore your roolz.

As for “you can’t shout racist if people aren’t being offensive,” where on earth do you even start with that ?

'As for “you can’t shout racist if people aren’t being offensive,” where on earth do you even start with that '

Allow me to help you with examples. 'Beyonce shouldn't say her 7yr old is an icon, it's very unhealthy and her child will grow up arrogant with a massive ego', isn't racist and again would apply to any celeb's DC. If however someone said 'I don't like MOBO and it's artists' that would be racist as it's singling out poc.

Do you understand? Opinions, unless criticising someone because of their colour aren't always racist. Sometimes they will be, but people have to learn to tell the difference. Aggressively attacking posters, then having their own comments deleted as they can't engage intelligently, doesn't help anyone does it.

Nice username, it's a bit clunky and eager to please though imo.

No I don’t understand you, and I am extremely grateful for that.

I very much doubt that you have learned what is racist.

What you have is your own opinion. You may be entitled to an opinion, but whether you have sufficient self awareness to realise when you should talk and when you should listen on certain topics is a different thing.

But you can’t force others to share your opinion, or stop them from forming an opinion of you as a consequence of your views.

Oh, thank you. I thought carefully about it, as I really didn’t want to appear up the arse of another poster, you know?

'Oh, thank you. I thought carefully about it, as I really didn’t want to appear up the arse of another poster, you know?'

No you've lost me

It's why there are so many deletions on fwr, some people aren't able to debate without insults.

Some of the very unpleasant posters on MN who call everyone a racist for saying such things as Blue Ivy isn't an icon really do a disservice to those experiencing real racism.

No wish whatsoever to appear racist or ignorant so under the cloak of anonymity I will ask where the racism connected with Blue Ivy / Ivy Blue came from?

Some of the very unpleasant posters on MN who call everyone a racist for saying such things as Blue Ivy isn't an icon really do a disservice to those experiencing real racism

So helpful for poor ignorant minorities to have you define racism for us.

You keep banging the drum to defend to prioritise the rights of white people to criticise black people - its a really good look and it suits you.

'You keep banging the drum to defend to prioritise the rights of white people to criticise black people - its a really good look and it suits you.'

Perfect example of the lack of comprehension. Where have i said anything about prioritising the rights of white people to criticise black people?? Do tell. What I have said is negative comments about the Carter's saying 'my 7yr old is an icon' (for example) aren't necessarily racist based because a mnetter says so.

You keep 'banging your drum' that all white people are racist though. It 'suits you'.

I would genuinely like an answer to my question.