“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3401817-Irish-Border-solved-with-Canada-Plus-Plus-deal

This is the thread I reported by the way if anyone else can be arsed to trawl through individual posts and report the fuck out of them.

Thanks giant, i’ll Have a look through.

Thanks IstandwithPosie I've just gone through and reported individual posts for creeping racism and unconscious bias and blatant racism - but it's all OK in the guise of faux innocent wide eyed-ness.

I'm really fed up that we haven't had decent engagement here from MNHQ - most of us weren't making a nationalist point (with one notable exception) we were engaging civilly and trying to make the point to HQ in a way that they would understand.

They have a statutory duty to sort this out, at the end of the day, we are protected under the Equality Act, it's not just trans issues that get protected that way. And lets not forget, it isn't that long ago that there was actual literal violence and thousands and thousands of deaths over the heads of the conflict between the Irish and the British, and I am sure and certain no one wants to go back to those days.

@Ringsender2 - thanks for saying that. Too many English people do not want to admit that they are coming from a place of privilege with respect to Ireland, possibly because they do not see race as a factor in Irish / English relations. There has been a lot of waking up with regard to the West Indies, India and so on because of heightened awareness of racial inequality but Ireland and its history still remains a blank for many English people.

I had some work to do myself when I moved to the USA as an Irish person. I used to have a kind of Irish nationalism wherein we Irish were always the downtrodden, the oppressed, on the side of the outcasts but once I moved here and saw how race relations are up close, I realized that having white skin is a form of privilege too, no matter what your personal class or background might be. Going through the world as a white person is just easier.

White is seen as 'normal'. All the writers, actors, scientists, geniuses we are told to admire have the same skin color as me and my children. That's a form of privilege and I had to inform myself and raise my awareness of things like that when I moved to the US. It's a good exercise in opening your mind and seeing the world from a different point of view.

Well done to you for opening your mind - I wish more English people would make the effort as many Irish people have to when we leave our small country (apart from SheBangsIt maybe )

I read that thread and many others like it. I just find them so frusrating. When it's explained over and over why and how it can't work but people just refuse to even try to understand.

And the attitude that it's the irishouse who are being difficult in the negotiations is so frustrating. It's all just so sad. You think that times have moved on and that attitudes have changed (towards Ireland from England ) but all of this is showing that plus ça change .

And sadly, I feel it's going the other way too. I told the story about telling a guy years ago about Irish people supporting the opposition in England soccer games. Whilst I think this would still happen now (but not for the same reasons or the animosity that there was back then) things HAVE changed post GFA. There was a maturity in our relationship with the UK, a new neighbourliness. I think this is changing too. When tensions rise, people start digging their trenches and then no one wins.

I'm Irish. I live in Scotland. Ignorance of Irish history is not solely an English issue. I can't really believe that some of the posters on here don't see the irony. They are banging on about 'the English' doing this and 'the English' being ignorant and 'the problem with the English' . It reeks of the same sweeping generalisations of the anti-Irish sentiment that they are complaining of and undermines their argument.

To be fair, this thread has come out of another thread that specifically referenced the English and the Anglo-Irish roundturn which I think is why the focus is on the English specifically.

And I don't think I for one have "banged on" about this English this that or anything. I've talked about pervasive racism towards the Irish and unconscious bias and such, but I don't think (will go and check my posts though) have specifically "banged on" about that coming from the English.

I've just checked.

I referenced English in relation to the deleted thread, where the OP had adjudged certain writers to be really more English, and I certainly haven't banged on about it.

The premise of the deleted thread was that Irish writers weren't really Irish, they were Anglo-Irish at best and the decent ones were actually English, so it's kind of hard to discuss that without referencing the English

Giantbanger, that thread has now been deleted. There have been many others in the same vein in recent months though.

Roundturn, I agree that sweeping generalisations about English people does nothing to help. I think though that this thread was in response Monday night's thread. The danger when people feel that racism is allowed to stand unchallenged is that they get angry. And that does no one any good. In fairness, I think it's only been one poster who got nasty on this thread. That doesn't invalidate the feelings of the rest of us and our absolute entitlement to be offended.

people just refuse to even try to understand I mentioned this earlier. It's the refusal to entertain that the Irish person might be right that gets on my wick!

roundturn that's just one person with questionable motives as Bore said

That thread has gone this afternoon then, because I reported it and Michael Mumsnet said the "post" wasn't breaking talk guidelines and could I go through and report any posts that were.

I think the Scottish I have known have had a greater awareness of the issues the Irish face when dealing with the English, not least because of their own country’s relationship with England. Many Scots were ‘moved’ to Ulster. English Landlords behaved as abhorrently to their Scottish tenants as their Irish. Sectarianism is alive in the big cities.

I referred to the English (and I am English myself) quite deliberately in my earlier posts and I stand by the distinction.

Part of the bloody problem is that I reported THAT WHOLE THREAD to Mn. And michael came back and said go through and report each racist post. He couldn't even take the time to read the thread himself and see what the issue was.

That saddens me immensely.

I've experienced racism from both English and Scottish people so it depends on the Scot I guess!

The Irish Proclamation of independence was one of the most important things to happen in Irish and women's history. It called to people, to stop brutal murder of the British Army of innocent people.
AND below also this was printed large

a guarantee of "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens", the first mention of gender equality, given that Irish women under British law were not allowed to vote;

Well @SheBangsit lets hope you haven't just managed to get the thread deleted. Way OTT.

Oh that worked out so well for Irish women And

Sadly, JaneJeffer , the only survivor of those 7 signatories was de Valera who had very definite ideas of where a woman's place was and made sure this was enshrined in law.

Out of the frying pan into the Catholic fire...

Right, let’s get this back on track. @MNHQ your response to our concerns about attitudes towards the Irish is awaited. Please have the courtesy to provide us with a meaningful response

I've had an email from Lorna at HQ to say that they are discussing it again tomorrow, apologies these things take time, and to please bear with them.

Ok fair do’s

@pleasegotowork.

Indeed, Dev was an awful leader 6" foot tall with not backbone, he really did not females. And knew what he was doing sending Collins over to Britain to sign his death warrant

The enlightened, lady history teachers used to say, "the only reason there isn't a road named after him, is because, they never found one as long and as crooked as him.

My main issue with HQ is that their message saying “we’ve had reports but the dialogue is interesting so this is staying” was clearly written without having even a cursory look at the OP, since we later learned that s/he was a PBP of known goady intentions. Given that checking out the OP is Mumsnet-moderating-101, it seems that all the reports were dismissed out of hand. I want to know why that was.

I would like to add, on the wider discussion this has spawned, that it is all very well to decry nationalism when you’re part of a cultural/linguistic/racial majority. For minority groups or those living under invasion, however, it is their nationalistic identity that helps them to continue to fight against the subjugation of their language, culture, democracy and human rights.
Personally I think that whilst nationalism can be necessary, it can be taken too far and nationalistic fervour is generally counter productive. However the flames of nationalism are fanned by a sense of being downtrodden, overlooked or spoken down to... which is why all the anti-Irish rhetoric is dangerous, especially in the context of the north of Ireland.

Finally, where else in the oxymoronically-titled “United Kingdom” would huge bonfires with signs saying “KILL ALL ” be actively allowed by the authorities? Only in the north of Ireland, and only “KILL ALL TAIGS”. Those signs were up for days in July, and that is the context that should be remembered by mods at HQ.