These Spelling/Grammar threads - could we have a new board for them? 'The Echo Chamber' perhaps?

[LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726]

Threads complaining about posters' spelling/grammar/paragraph length are getting to be quite frequent on the AIBU board. I think that there isn't a kind way to pull somebody up on their spelling/punctuation/grammar and, unless somebody has asked for corrections, they shouldn't be imposed. I've seen posters be heckled for their posting 'inadequacies' and leave the thread not to return.

Mumsnet is supposed to be an inclusive site where anybody is free to post, but it's not very freeing if a thread itself is peppered with 'corrections' and nor is it inclusive if targeted threads like the one currently on AIBU, are posted to pre-correct and complain about posters' spelling, punctuation and/or grammar, in advance.

Rather than put posters off posting for fear of these SPAG 'bigots', do you think we could have a separate board for these threads? This so that a) posters don't feel censured for their literacy skills and put off posting and, b) posters who want to issue and discuss corrections, can do so amongst the like-minded.

I was thinking that it could be called something like, "The Echo Chamber" or whatever appropriate name?

Pedants' Corner isn't really the right place for these as that's generally a peaceable and instructive board and the posters there don't want 'those sorts of threads' either. I agree with them.

Could you consider this please, MNHQ?

We do see your point and it's an interesting idea.

We'll pass it up the chain and see what they think.

Please don't, MNHQ. This isn't about being inclusive at all. It's about someone with a real bee in their bonnet about these types of threads trying to push them out of her way.

I could just hide them, BIWI. Please don't make this personal because it isn't.

I don't see why some posters feel the need to keep instructing others how they should spell, use grammar, type paragraphs, etc.

Posters will either agree or not agree about a new board but Pedants' Corner definitely don't want those shitty, sneering threads.

Agree with Lying there must be at least one of these threads a week and their only aim is to sneer at other posters imo. These posters always spout rubbish about how "surely people should appreciate being corrected" and such nonsense but seriously, do people post on MN for advice/opinion or for English lessons?

These threads are about general, commonly made mistakes, they are not targeting specific people. (I totally agree that correcting someone's SPAG on an unrelated thread is awful). So I don't teally see how they are any more hurtful or off-putting than threads expressing a dislike of seeing... I dunno... waterfall cardigans, toddlers with dummies, poor parking or houses with brown leather sofas and twigs with fairy lights.

Yes, they are all a little bit intolerant and a little bit sneery, and might make people think "Oh shit - I do that! ". But you'd be removing half of MN if you got rid of them. In any case, most of them are on AIBU, which is pretty much made for that kind of thread.

Perhaps we see them differently? I think they're very alike in nature to the "Tell me your most unpopular opinion" whereupon posters fall over themselves to talk about things are not harmless because of the way they do it.

Example:
Poster 1: I don't like Audis
Poster 2: I don't like Audis either, they're a shit car
Poster 3: I don't like Audis, they're shit and everyone who drives them in an x,y,z.

I wouldn't have an issue with poster 1 or 2, I would with 3. By the same token,

Poster 1: AIBU to hate seeing 'specifically' written as 'pacifically'?
Poster 2: I don't like it either, I really hate 'ect' for 'etc'.
Poster 3: Posters that write 'pacifically' and 'ect' are thick, uneducated, x,y,z.

Again, I don't have an issue with Poster 1 or 2 even though they sweep up lots of posters in their needless comments. Poster 3 is there to be goady and spiteful. No other explanation necessary.

Because the threads are a bit on the goady side to start if they're posted on AIBU then it's only a matter of time before poster types 1 and 2 are overtaken by poster 3 sorts... and it's mean-spirited, non-inclusive badinage that causes other posters to complain about it.

The point is, you (general) could have a thread for this type of SPAG commentary on another board - and you could make poster 1-2-3 comments; nobody would complain because you'd be away from the main board. Not heckling on AIBU or Chat - or Pedants' Corner.

Is there something wrong with that?

The threads are always deleted or moved to Pedants' Corner and the PC posters don't want them there either. If threads about posters' SPAG standards have to be discussed, what difference does it make if there's a separate board for that? No complaints or reports from anybody presumably.

I think some posters fondly think that they're 'educating' others but, unless that poster wants to be told of SPAG transgressions, you're insulting them. A poster whose primary language isn't English isn't necessarily obvious, ditto Dyslexia or any other condition. You'd be scooping those posters up too. That's what makes this so awful. If you really need to be told.

Anyway, MNHQ will either create a board or won't - but those threads - if they're posted on the main boards - will turn into eventual bunfights because that's what always happens.

Thanks, CantSleep. I don't do text speak myself, nor use the abbreviations here because I don't particularly like them but I understand the posters who use that just fine.

I also skate past the SPAG errors because sure as eggs are eggs, I will make one myself on the thread...

Why not just delete posts from the Poster 3 types? I've actually been made to realise I was committing a couple of errors by those kind of 'general' SPaG threads and I wasn't offended by seeing it.

Any new board probably won’t get the traffic of AIBU, so such posters will most likely continue to post in AIBU, regardless. Like any kind of posts that irritate you particularly (I detest MIL ones) you’d just be best hiding them. As to putting off new posters, posting in AIBU is always going to be treacherous territory. They shouldn’t post in AIBU looking for support - if that’s what they need, then definitely go to another, existing MN board. Few go there for support.

I don't like the sneery tone of any thread! There's plenty of it on MN though.

I agree, that I don't like it when people sneer at others for their poor SPaG - but general threads started to vent/rant about it aren't about that.

And, who knows, perhaps it is informative for some people? For example, the mis-use of 'ect' for 'etc'. Very few people learn Latin these days, so have no idea that it's short for et cetera.

I get that you don't like the threads, Lying, so just don't read them. That's the standard advice, isn't it?

And I'm not trying to make it personal, but I do take issue with your 'I'm going to police MN' stance that you seem to be taking here, because you don't like these kind of threads.

Historia, it's when it gets to Poster 3 type commenting - and it always does because those threads are that way 'by design'.

TheClaws, I don't think posters do post in AIBU for support and if they do, they're quickly herded off. There are a lot of threads that would irritate me and I never even open them. If I make the mistake of opening them, I immediately hide them, we can all do that.

BIWI, I've explained (perhaps not well) about the direction that some threads take. The last SPAG that was moved to Pedants' Corner was really insulting in some posts. Not to me, to posters 'guilty' of literacy transgressions and it went beyond just 'sneery'.

It's the same tired format of lazy 'let's have a bunfight' thread, exactly like the horrible "AIBU to think that people shouldn't have dirty houses"... the OP of that thread name-changed because she knew it was going to cause upset - actually said so. What a twattish poster that one is who is probably back in her usual name now, posting alongside posters that have no idea what an inadequate person she is. She wasn't on her own because she had lots of willing and bile-filled posters falling over themselves to agree and give examples and ramp it up. The OP got what she wanted, at the expense of many. That thread was vile.

I was looking at the butter/spread thread just now, interested in what posters think of it and even though there's a definite 'split between who likes what, it's not judgemental. Not all threads have to become bunfights, but some are posted for that purpose or at least in the hope of it.

What you said, TheClaws about traffic - and picking up your point, BIWI about wanting a rant... how would a new board prevent that? I mean, if you have a dog and you want to chat about him you'd probably wander over to 'The Doghouse' because you'd find other dog-lovers there. How would a new board encroach? Presumably, if you'd got a bee in your bonnet about some SPAG issue, you'd hot-foot it over to the new board and find other people ranting about the same or similar and you'd presumably be in your element. Why the need for it to be on the main board where you will insult/diminish posters, given that the thread will not just stay at Poster 1 or 2 level because it never, ever does?

I know you think that I'm policing MN, BIWI or trying to. I'm really not. Mostly I read and move on without posting anything or reporting. We could all do that. We could all find something else to do rather than frequent Mumsnet too and I give myself holidays quite often. All of us posting here are reporting trolls and calling out bigotry, racism, disablism, etc. and we're expected to do that, aren't we? It shows that we don't think that's acceptable and it shows solidarity for the person/group being picked on.

Well, given that we don't know whether a poster falling foul of SPAG has just made a typo or whether they have dyslexia, English not their first language, other reason - it's not reasonable to chance it, is it?

Even if they are just 'incorrect', it's rude to correct adults that haven't asked for that correction. The Pedants' Corner is where I go when I want to check something and I learn new words there or on the main boards just by seeing the words posted. I don't have to say anything and the poster isn't drawing anybody's attention to them, it's just part of the posts.

Anyway, I started this thread as it was suggested on the current SPAG thread. MNHQ are the only 'police' here, I've got no interest in acting like a 'board monitor', I'm anything but. I've had my fair share of 'Mumsnet Calling' e-mails and posts deleted when I've posted like a twat, I'm sure, despite my best intentions, there will be more.

Oh that was far too long, sorry.

Why would you think that new topics would make any difference when pretty much the only one that gets used us AIBU.

MNHQ aren't interested in any kind of monitoring of threads to give the site a proper structure afaics

I regularly see threads that start ”posting for traffic” or similar because they know there won't be any replies in the correct topic.

And personally I think there's nothing wrong with trying to uphold basic standards of written English as long as it's not done as a personal attack on specific individuals.

Anyway, I started this thread as it was suggested on the current SPAG thread. MNHQ are the only 'police' here, I've got no interest in acting like a 'board monitor', I'm anything but. I've had my fair share of 'Mumsnet Calling' e-mails and posts deleted when I've posted like a twat, I'm sure, despite my best intentions, there will be more.

And yet, weren't you the poster who reported another for using the word 'chav' on a thread...?

Double standards much?

SandyDenny, how would you go about 'upholding basic standards of written English on such a thread then? I'm very interested because I cannot see a way that anybody could do it without causing offence.

I reckon, you (general) could do it on a specific SPAG thread, call it, for example - 'SPAG1' and discuss any manner of spelling, punctuation, grammar corrections - but you'll be posting amongst others doing the same. There will not likely be posters on the thread who are 'guilty' of the crimes so who will you be upholding these precious tenets to exactly? Who is your audience?

You can't correct posters' language on a random thread on another subject - not without sounding like a superior twat anyway - and you'll be pulled up on that. There isn't a kind or elegant way of correcting people who haven't asked for this.

I don't know what MNHQ are interested in really, I started the thread to find out if they were interested in having a new board for SPAG discussions - because the Pedants' Corner doesn't want that type of thread and AIBU is a general board - SPAG is, arguably, a specific topic rather than a general one.

abbey, Yes I was and not the only one by a long shot. If MNHQ doesn't see anything wrong with the term then they will ignore the reports.

Do you honestly think 'chav' is an acceptable term to use? I'm embarrassed for you if so.

... and that 'Chav names' thread is now being deleted.

What I think of the term is completely irrelevant. I was just pointing out your inconsistency in what you say in one post and what you did elsewhere. No need to be embarrassed for me, thanks very much.

I don't believe that I am inconsistent. I report posts or threads like any other user of the board does. Trolls, goady fuckers, offensive posts - I'm not discerning - that's what MNHQ has said posters are to do. Complying with the request doesn't make me a 'board monitor'.

... and also, your suggestion of a name for the board is also pretty rude. Was that really necessary?

I don't like the sneery tone of any thread! There's plenty of it on MN though.

Quite. What about the 'places you would never go back to' thread, where various perfectly OK places are described to as 'shitholes'?

At least the grammar threads are educational.

The definition is this on the Urban Dictionary:

echo chamber:
an insular communication space where everyone agrees with the information and no outside input is allowed...

The people who keep interrupting threads to correct SPAG are exceedingly rude and absolutely unnecessary. The current thread is a good example of posters talking to themselves.

Quite accurate I thought but suggestions are just that, not a decree.

I've been polite to you, I think you've actually been quite rude.

Aethel, I haven't seen that thread but that seems to be exactly the point I made about Audis in an earlier post. It's a judgement on the people who drive one (or would live there, on that thread). It's not necessary.

I think what you are talking about, then, lies within the domain of talk guidelines and etiquette. In that case, you really don’t need another board - it just won’t be used as it because of the perceived overlap with Pedants’ Corner, plus lack of traffic. Perhaps MN would consider adding or altering a few lines of the Talk Guidelines?

The thing is, Lying, that you've chosen to comment about posts that were started to discuss/rant about poor SPaG - and not those where people are interrupting others to correct SPaG. There's a massive difference.

I'm sorry if you think I've been rude. I don't think I have, but I am irritated and frustrated by your posts, and your attempt to get threads like these shut down. And that irritation and frustration obviously shows.