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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Without discussing specifics can you tell us what policies are going to change

23 replies

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 17:32

Can you tell us what policies are going to be going forward and how things will change.

Thank you

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 17:55

Specifically

Policy on crowdfunding and just giving page is not linked to proper registered charities

Policy on legitimising and verifying identity of posters on threads and what HQ will say on this

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 18:53

Bumping. I'd like to be reassured lessons will be learned and have a record that others can see

OP posts:
Iris65 · 07/08/2017 18:54

Those are good questions.

doowapwap · 07/08/2017 18:57

Very valid questions @Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 19:00

Thank you - I would like to know because I think it's important there is a statement from hq that isn't on a deleted thread.

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 19:05

By saying "what hq will say on this"
I mean will hq ever again come on to a thread and say that they have gone above and beyond to verify a poster and that the poster is legitimate.

And if not, what will they say in future.

OP posts:
ChristopherWren · 07/08/2017 19:06

I didn't see a statement from HQ. They made one (presumably about what happened at the weekend) and then deleted it? That doesn't sound very helpful.

TheCrowFromBelow · 07/08/2017 19:11

I completely agree about crowdfunding.

I don't know how they can check things are legitimate though, without having a policy of "we don't let people post asking for money unless they pass these ID checks" which when the crowdfunding sites themselves don't ask for any ID just isn't going to happen!

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 19:12

It was on a thread that has gone.

I do think it's helpful to have a general statement about what the policies will be going forward.

I'd like to add

Should we Report or take it to the thread as per Katherine mumsnet hq email to me and as others have been told

Also are people banned for reporting

OP posts:
Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 19:14

They should ban all posts which ask either directly or subliminally for money. In my opinion.

OP posts:
OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/08/2017 19:20

I would like to see a statement on what has happened and what will change on a thread that won't get deleted.

BigApples · 07/08/2017 19:22

I want to hear from them on this too. I thought there was quite a good dialogue with them but then they deleted the thread.....

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/08/2017 19:26

Policy on legitimising and verifying identity of posters on threads and what HQ will say on this

I didn't read any of the threads in question, but if MNHQ said that the guy was legit then they seriously fucked up, and are morally if not legally responsible for the money that people have and any emotional distress caused.

I suspect that they will no longer be saying "this poster checks out". If they have any sense they will have a policy of deleting threads that they know are trolls and any other threads may well be trolls but no-one can know.

TBF users need to take some responsibility too,and not be so open minded that their brains fall out and never ever give money to some random on the internet that you dont know - that's just basic common sense. Of course if MN did specifically say this guy and his cause we're legitimate then they, and not the users, were responsible in this case.

DancingLedge · 07/08/2017 19:27

Would that ban anyone coming in and mentioning how skint they are? Or are only he middle classes welcome?

The money's a shame, but surely not the biggest issue. By far.
I'm not a huge fan of how what-musn't-be-mentioned has been handled, but that, MN has always had warnings about not giving more, financially or emotionally, than you can spare.

If I ever see fit to respond to someone's plea, here or IRL, and it's not a registered charity, I do so preferring to risk that it's a pisstake, than that a real person is dire straits.

Surely the real victims here are the real life family.

Being emotionally taken for a mug is painful, yes, but not compared to a family for whom this is all a horrific reality.

But, MNHQ, if you can't allow stuff for legal reasons, or other reasons, you could actually tell us that. Like we're grownups or something.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 19:31

Please don't mention specifics

OP posts:
SecretNutellaFix · 07/08/2017 19:44

HQ need to be fully clear on this situation.

0nline · 07/08/2017 21:48

Piggybacking onto the OP with a reposting, cos it got eaten on another thread. This thread seems an even more appropriate place for it

-

Grief, loss, shitbags and Web 2.0

Events beyond my control have led me to have conversations on here with other people who have also had bereavement and loss complicated by the existence of public online communications and a shitbag or two in the family.

By the same token, the existence of online communication, MN specifically and the posters who engaged with me as I flailed about, in a pain that I think may have stripped me of any sense I may once have had, saved my arse.

It's a 2 sides of one coin sort of thing.

So I know there is a tight rope to be walked between facilitating much needed support, and protecting posters and off-line family members from fall out, abuse of trust and the existence of not-so-nice people in the context of illness and death.

I have a dog in this hunt. While I initially wanted to batter the posters, (not here, other forums/sites) discussing my father's death, over the head with their keyboards, that was the anger that disappeared the fastest. Not least because of all people I was angry with, they were the only ones who engaged. And actually, turned out to be mostly kind, sympathetic and fairly horrified that they had inadvertently been put in the position they found themselves in.

However I still harbour a certain amount of ill will towards the sites that hosted the exchanges and information. I appreciate the need to protect a product and a brand. I understand I am not the only person on the planet and rules cannot be individualised to my needs. But a lack of willingness to engage in a conversation in how to avoid a reoccurrence was not appreciated. It left a bitter taste in my mouth. I didn't want or need an apology for something that RL people connected to me had created by being selfish, immoral shitbags. But it felt dismissive to offer an unneeded sorry, without a much needed attempt to at least look at how the chances of reoccurrence could be minimised.

That can and hopefully will be avoided on this site. Which IMO has stood out and flourished because of, rather than despite, it's more unusual and open management style.

I'd like to make some suggestions that could be discussed, specifically for unintended consequences, but also for basic feasibility.

1- Delete all and any mention of real life identifying information relating to the identity of the deceased and those who would by extension lead to their identification.

What you don't ever see, because it is essentially google-proof thanks to lack of identifying features, can't eviscerate you. What wings it's way to you because an online identity has been linked to a real life one can feel like being pierced with red hot pokers of shame, anger and shock.

2- Add a permanent and fairly detailed, "do(s) & don'ts" warning to boards more likely to packed to the rafters with emotionally vulnerable people, who may be sitting ducks for the more exploitative among us. When a thread attracts a lot of attention, particularly in terms of reports, would it be possible to consider repeating the "more detailed than usual" warning, within the body of the thread ?

Grief is a greedy fucker. There is little it won't try and suck off you. It can take your normally raised shields that protect you from life's chancers and smash them to the ground. It is reasonable to expect posters to engage good sense on here. But there are times in life when all the hard earned good sense you ever had just leaves, as a swirl of conflicting and strong emotions take over the steering wheel. It's not a reasonable ask for all of the people dealing with the ramifications of grief to always be able to operate under "life as normal" expectations in terms of well maintained boundaries and a healthy dose of self-protecting cynicism.

3- Shut down all overt and covert attempts to fund raise, or soften up posters to the concept of fund raising/donating. Both on thread and via the PM system.

There have been instances where funds have been raised for posters and that has been a good, positive thing. But at this size, with the degree of exposure MN has, this site is a magnet for chancers, bastards and shitbags on the make. They will go for the soft underbelly, the boards where people are most likely to be off-kilter and shields down due to life events. They need to be strongly discouraged with a very muscular shutting down of their attempts to make a personal gain, so that support can remain.

I cannot afford the therapy I need to get to a place where I can fly over, locate my father's place of rest and accept his death and the circumstances surrounding it.

This I can live with.

What I am not so sure I could have lived with is a lack of support where I found warmth, understanding, engagement and ... a very real propping up of me. I wanted to die. About four times an hour. I have family, but the words would not come when around them, cos I owed them no extra weight. MN was pretty much the only place where I could let out the howl, feel heard and understood. I have concerns that unless there are clear boundaries placed on what can and cannot be asked or suggested to posters the upshot will be the withering away of a willingness to trust a random stranger enough to offer support, for fear of being sucked into something untoward. That would be a far far far greater loss than the loss of good being done via donations. IMO.

4- Recognition that not-so-nice people can be bereaved too.

Trolls are not the only bridge dwellers. People can be who they say they are, be dealing with the loss they say they have suffered. And still be god awful people with one eye on the prize. My own brother was crowd funding before his wife was even cold. He never had any intention of spending the money on the "bereaved reasons" people thought they were donating to. His semi- faux grief led people to be less cautious than they otherwise would have been. Which was exactly what he was banking on. His real world bereavement became a handy shield to ward of criticism and probing questions about the exact nature of his grief related outgoings. Shitbags walk among us, people connected to them will get ill, have accidents and die. It doesn't mean they temporarily stop being absolute aresholes while they are in the shadow of grief.

This is the hardest one to resolve. How to avoid being heavy handed so the recently, or about-to-be, bereaved are not over policed and under an air of suspicion at a time when they have never needed more support. All while being alert to the reality that some people are awful, even when dealing with real world events that actually happened to them.

I don't think there can be a clear cut, one size fits all policy here. IMO it has to be case by case. The risk of calling it wrong cannot be engineered out of the equation completely because... human error and only hindsight is 20/20.

With that in mind think it might be worth building a small (2/3) team (to provide 24/7 coverage) with some extra expertise in this regard.

Which sounds overegged I know. However it is worth considering that family bonds may have become more fragile than they used to be. This is in addition to modern communications becoming a game changer in terms social interaction. There is illness/death news sharing and a public participation in a loss that can affect many more family members than the one bereaved poster who is posting on a thread.

I think the way SM and forums are failing (and conversations here, with other people who had their loss complicated by online communications and discussion, underlines the failure is not small scale ) to adapt and evolve in the face of the above, specifically in the context of death and bereavement, is something of a time bomb waiting to go off. IMO it is worth future proofing the site to some extent by getting ahead of the curve and building some expertise and knowledge in a small team.

And then maybe you can do the rest of the world's online comms management a favour by beating what you have learned, evolved and created, into their thick heads.

I accept that while I might know quite a lot about a family member's death being publicly discussed all over the internet, I don't know a great deal about running a site of this size. So I'd like to underline the intensions of the above, suggestions for discussion to tease out inbuilt flaws that have not occurred to me. And the generation of better suggestions that will work without the inbuilt flaws.

It is by no means a list a demands. And I don't want to teach my grandmother how to suck eggs. Promise.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 07/08/2017 21:53

0nline Flowers

OP posts:
IonaMumsnet · 07/08/2017 22:49

Hi there Mychild. We can see you've already found the thread where KateMumsnet has been posting about all this tonight but for the benefit of anyone else, this is the thread to head to for more information on all this. We just think it might be easier to keep everything together to allow people to get the info they need.

0nline · 08/08/2017 07:22

@IonaMumsnet

I'm sorry, I know I am being a picky pain in the arse when your plate is already spilling over the sides with stuff to do, but.... the issues raised in this thread are not a good fit with a thread dedicated to the question of fraud.

Many people, posters and admins, are upset. Some have had their fingers burned, really quite nastily in some cases. And I absolutely do not wish to minimise that. However the reality is that most will, in the not so distant future, move on. They are unlikely to still be brooding and stewing over the event in 2, 5, 10 years time.

That is not necessarily going to be the case for extended family members who had no say, no part in their deceased relative becoming a topic of conversation on the internet.

The posters and admins (not MN.) who reeled with shock when I bounced in with emotional overload set to warp speed nine won't forget it in a hurry. But I'll become one of those "do you remember when ?" shared site stories. And in time they'll laugh. Because for them it must have been massively surreal.

I'm not ever going to laugh. I'm not ever going to forget. I'm not ever going to have a wholesale freedom from being the freak whose parent's death was a horrible circus because of an internet based twist of fate and shitbags connected to the family.

It is not MNHQ's fault that not-nice people see the bereaved, or those struggling with the ramifications of life limiting illness as the soft underbelly of a site, the place of easiest pickings due to damaged defences.

Nor is it MNHQ's fault that some families have members who make decisions that lead to a bereavement becoming an online "thing".

However what the OP of this thread was underlining is that if we view recent events as a learning curve, there may be holes in some policies that can be closed. Which could go some way to reducing the potential for other off-line family members and bereaved people from having to join the numbers whose lives have suffered notable detriment due to modern communications and a death combining badly.

I'm not saying it is a conversation that has to happen right this minute. There is value in letting initial heat die down, so it can be approached in a more measured fashion.

Rather than being deleted, or merged into an unrelated thread (in terms of primary focus) could this one be spared a zapping, and instead be frozen for a week or two.. or three, and then revisited to see if something more positive and "better than before" can come out of what has been a very unpleasant time for all concerned ?

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 08/08/2017 07:27

Thank you online.

That's the point I was trying to make. The focus needs to be on lessons to learn going forward.

OP posts:
0nline · 08/08/2017 08:26

I thinking the thanking needs to go the other way around. You started a thread that put a tight focus where (IMO) the most good, and least harm can evolve from something .. really unpleasant.

So Flowers

I think one of things I still struggle mightily with (huge waves of irrational anger-wise) is the strong sense of not mattering. We, his children, were a company/site problem that needed to be resolved. On a human level I'm sure people had their own feelings. But in their work role the professional requirement was to neutralise us, rather than work towards reducing the potential for more people in our position, in the name of humanity rather than bottom line. I get why it was like that, but I hate it. I rankle, burn and fester still on that point.

I cannot get a do-over for us. But I would like to try to persuade a site I have a strong attachment to, to look at steps to reduce the potential for their platform to be a tool that creates more people like us.

I would like posters who are able to make sense of what I am trying to communicate to join in an analytical and "considering solutions from 360° to check for unintended consequences" conversation about how policy holes can be stitched. Because there are some amazingly informed, perceptive , varied professional and sharp minds on this site. They are a resource that could and should be harnessed to resolve whatever ultimately gets defined as resolvable.

I would like site admin and management, that IMO already leans much more "humanity focused" than most, to be able to participate without feeling defensive, or acrimoniously critiqued. Becuase otherwise I think that very human emotions will get in the way of mining a silver lining from a dark, stormy cloud that has already rained on and lightning zapped too many people.

I'm probably going to need an umbrella several days a week for the rest of my life. But IMO that doesn't have to be an inevitable, unavoidable form of human collateral damage for every online communication platform. Not if efforts are made to work out where the worst pitfalls are, so a ruddy great big barrier can be slapped on top of them.

Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed · 08/08/2017 08:54

Post from blingy on antiher thread :

Today 07:54 Blingygolightly

we hope that most of you can understand that we're just not set up to do forensic detective work

I totally agree with you MNHQ. However, from a business perspective, Mumsnet had income of £7m last year and made profit of over £2m. You're not exactly a kitchen table company anymore so you need to review how you operate and your risks and procedures as a large company.

I posted on one of the many deleted threads that Mumsnet really needs to look at it's internal risk policies as to how you handle these situations. You have clearly made a quick decision over the charity/crowdfunding thing but there are much larger issues. This kind of situation is going to crop up repeatedly and if there's a lesson to be learned it's how you handle a long running thread with repeated reporting by many many posters over a 4 month period. Do you think, hand on heart that you have treated those posters well, both at the time they reported and over the weekend? Imvho I would say not, and that's why you have posters who are emotional about it. In their anger, many posters have probably put themselves in danger of being sued and I totally get that this is one of the reasons why some threads might have been pulled, but you never said this. In fact the message by @katemumsnet only makes an oblique reference to that possibility.

(An aside to mumsnetters, I have said repeatedly over the last few days that I believe the poster in the thread concerned was exactly who they said they were. Mumsnet believe this too, as do other posters. Think for one moment before you post whether you can afford to be sued for defamation and slander before you throw accusations around, especially those posters who were naming the couple concerned or responding after they had been named).

Back to MNHQ: it didn't take me very long to conclude the story checked out using online resources (check the deleted threads as to how i got there) and quite frankly any one of your 84 employees could have done the same. Equally, if you didn't feel savvy enough to do this, you might want to use a v small portion of those £2m of profits to keep an investigative company on a retainer who can quickly get to the bottom of things for you).

However, just because someone is exactly who they say they are doesn't mean that the situation presented is exactly as they say it is on a thread or that all material facts have been disclosed on the thread. Think carefully about what message your deletion statements and official statements convey either directly or subliminally.

I would also add that for a company that makes £2m profit running a 24 hour website where things are likely to blow up on a weekend, is strictly keeping office hours or having a "weekend crew" the right thing to do? Because I know at my company, our head of PR would have been straight on to this, advising management on how to respond. Do you have the same set up?

This will absolutely blow over but where is @justinemumsnet. If she's on holiday then fair enough tell everyone that but her silence on this issue also conveys a message to mumsnetters.

Final point, mumsnetters aren't stupid people. That's why you make £7m of income from them because advertisers are keen to engage with them (and pay you £4.5m) and get insights from or about mumsnetters (and pay £1m for the privilege). I guess the question you need to ask yourselves is over the last few days, weeks and months have you treated mumsnetters as if they are smart people from whom you make millions? Also, our PMs aren't exactly private to you. If you're getting a lot of reports about a thread or a poster then perhaps checking their PMs on a regular basis ought to be part of your risk procedures?

At the end of the day you're a business, you don't owe a duty of care to anyone, whatever you say about being a supportive environment for parents. Might it have been better at some point when the link to the foundation was first posted, to freeze the thread and say "we have had a ton of posters reporting so we need to freeze the thread while we look into their reports?". Could you not have privately said to the poster, okay, we believe you are who you say you are because you can prove it but something isn't quite adding up for posters, including many medical professionals so in this case, given you say you're a wealthy businessman, I think getting support through counselling might be the best route for you. And sorry for your loss.

Just a few thoughts!

I think that is a fantastic post that points hq to where they could learn things

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