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Original poster

Rules around banning?

14 replies

TheUnworthy · 13/11/2016 21:54

Feeling a little nervous after the recent thread that went 'poof' and reports of people being banned and not knowing why/not having any deleted posts beforehand.

Is there a three strike rule? No strikes?

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MNHQ

IonaMumsnet · 13/11/2016 22:38

Evening all. Just popping in to set your minds at rest (hopefully). We're sorry to say exactly what you probably don't want to hear but honestly, it is mostly as simple as 'if you follow talk guidelines you won't have any problems'.

As you might know, we don't hover over the boards waiting to swoop on transgressions so if you've come to our attention, it will be because we've had reports about your posts. We by no means delete all the posts that are reported to us (afraid I don't have the figures to hand but honestly, the rules here are pretty lax compared to most places where you might be rocketed off the site for a bit of a swear) and we ban a very small percentage. And when we do it's quite rare that it's 'for life' unless it's a very obvious troll or spammer or recurring PBP of some variety. We generally WANT people to be here and posting, so while we do have to apply the rules fairly, banning for good is rarely our first solution.

There aren't hard and fast rules because we try to be fair. If someone new joins and is incredibly goady and rude to people, we warn them, they don't stop and it's clear they are simply here to cause trouble we might well show them the door pretty quickly. But if it's someone who has obviously been having a difficult time, or a long-term poster who we know is a bit out of sorts for whatever reason, we might well deal with it a little more leniently. We know people are only human and make mistakes and so we don't really want to get to a stage where it's a black and white 'three strikes and you're out on your bum regardless' system. It's a pretty general template we go by, but we don't want to give a nasty goady troll three chances to upset everyone and on the other side of the coin, we don't want to lose someone who's been posting here for ten years just because they got out of bed on the wrong side three times in a decade.

Having said that, if a poster is flouting the rules continually and deliberately and generally making life unpleasant for others, we can't just overlook it. We're pretty clear in our Talk Guidelines and while we know it's easy to see red, post in haste and repent at leisure, we do have to be fair about it and ban them eventually if someone is a persistent offender and has had fair warning.

In answer to the questions, yes, we sometimes ban with no email or we simply haven't had time to email that person before they get in touch with us. Our hope is that if someone is genuine and they have just had a bad day, or don't understand why they've been banned, they will drop us a line and we can have a chat and sort it out. We don't ban anyone 'for life' and without warning without very good reason.

We really can't discuss individual cases with people who aren't the poster in question - it just wouldn't be fair. But if you think you've been unfairly dealt with or misunderstood, we're always happy to discuss it.

Honestly, the best thing is always to drop us a line and ask what's happened if you aren't sure. We're all very approachable people and we understand that MNers are very reasonable and approachable people, too. We really aren't going to hold it against someone for ever if they've lost their temper a bit, had one too many drinks late on a Friday night or just got wires crossed.

Hope that rather rambly explanation helps a bit, and please do let us know if there are any other questions. If it's specifically about your account, just drop us a line and we can have a chat with you off the boards.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:00

Hi all,

We wanted to pop back on and let you know that we have been in touch with wannabe and explained why we have suspended her account and that it is a temporary thing.

We do have to enforce the Talk guidelines from time-to-time otherwise it would be pointless to have them.

As Iona said up-thread, we don't discuss specific cases as it would be unfair but hypothetically speaking to try and explain further:
A MNetter joins in 2014 and posts for a year, never being reported. In 2015, we get 3 reports throughout the year about their posts. All of these posts are deleted for breaking talk guidelines, so either Personally attacking, spamming, troll hunting, being goady/racist/sexist etc
Following the third reported post, we send a warning mail saying why we have mailed and asking nicely for them to stop it.
6mths later, they troll hunt, it's not really bannable but we make a note as it's an indication that we may need to follow-up, or at least mail again. A week later, another few reports for similar stuff, we ban and wait for them to mail in and then we explain. If they agree to stop it, we will allow them back after a week.

At every point in this, there are judgement calls to make.
How bad was the post? Has the poster been around a while? Does the poster normally 'behave'? Who was the attack against and why? Did the poster report the 'troll' before shouting it on the thread?

It's a fairly huge process, that does change because we are all human beings. We don't pretend to be perfect and we will explain things wherever possible. We do not ban just for the lolz, or even to make our lives easier - all decisions are carefully considered and we do try to politely ask folks to behave too.

There are always exceptions but please do trust as, we don't just ban, we do take the time to think and read around.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:21

@AVirginLitTheCandle

That has not happened to numerous posters I know. They've been told immediately that MN is not the site for them and they're banned and that's it, no discussion. And the copied email earlier certainly supports that.

Somehow I doubt MNHQ will address that.

This is tricky to discuss publicly as we don't know who you are talking about and it wouldn't be fair to discuss it publicly.

However, what could have happened is that we have sent a few mails, temporarily banned them and they still do it and we have drawn a line or They may have posted a few minor things and then one really vile thing and we decided that they were not playing by the rules, which really aren't overly hard to post within or they have been name changing, posting lots of blatant misinformation under various names or sock-puppeting or they have recently joined and posted something really awful.

It could be any number of those thing but it certainly isn't our default position to ban. We cannot always explain the full picture to everyone but please do trust that we would rather give a warning or temp ban than ban for good and we don't do it without good reason.

The person who posted earlier clearly has an axe to grind, we'd welcome an email from them so we can explain their specific case.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:22

@OhYouBadBadKitten

Rebecca, thanks for coming back. Please could you consider my suggestions from yesterday at 8:51am.

I'll have a look OYBBK...

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:24

@Ghostofasmile

wait for them to mail in and then we explain

You do block / ignore emails from banned members though, so some of them don't get an explanation. So many people have stated this that it's clearly something you do.

Yes, we have done this in the past and still do. Generally, this is when we feel that we have nothing more to say or that we are not going to change our mind on that particular poster. We would much rather engage than not but very occasionally, we will make the choice to end the conversation when there is nothing more to be said.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:26

@NavyandWhite

In my own experience I had my account suspended last year ( or was it this year? ) for troll hunting. If I'm honest i thought it was fairly thinly disguised but still wrong. I was warned too tbf. I don't think HQ were wrong to suspend me either and it has made me think twice now because that troll maybe in fact genuine. So now I mither HQ very often by reporting everything I'm wary of.

As for Wannabe! I don't know what's gone on. But but but she is one of my all time favourite posters here. I don't think I've ever disagreed with her viewpoint and look to her posts as a benchmark frequently.
Hope she's ok and that she will be back soon. MN would be a much worse place without her. 😘

Agreed and we will allow her back if she'd like to come back but we do have to follow through on our own guidelines.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:30

@Soubriquet

What about the member I've emailed about Rebbeca

You emailed back saying you don't discuss other members. Fair enough I wasn't asking you to discuss it with me. I was asking you to at least reply to them. You still haven't done this

Hi Soubriquet,

We're sorry but we really can't discuss this as it's unfair to do so publicly.
If there is anything to be said, we will speak to that poster directly.

As I have previously posted, we do not choose to disengage lightly.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:32

@GloopyGhoul

I don't know the back story re:wannabe, and I'm too sporadic a poster to get banned (I've only been deleted once, and that was on a trolly cannibalism thread) but I don't think consistency is too much to ask for, HQ.

We'd agree and we do try our best to be as consistent as possible but the variants here are enormous and so absolute consistency is impossible.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:43

@Butteredpars1ps

Mmm. Have to be honest HQ some of this doesn't feel quite right. It's sounds like people get banned because x number of people report them. Surely not, that would be like mob rule?

People should be banned or suspended because they have significantly broken a rule or rules. It doesn't matter if it was reported by 1 poster or a zillion.

Hi Buttered,

Agreed and that's why we read every report. You could be reported a gazillion times, but if none of your posts break the guidelines then we won't take action.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:46

@bumbleymummy

Thanks Rebecca.

In the hypothetical situation that you described above, does the poster's history ever get 'reset' or will reports from years before still get used against them?

We certainly take the whole picture into account.
If someone is breaking guidelines 5 years ago and then we hear nothing and then there's another minor issue, we wouldn't necessarily hold their history against them, however, if there were consistent minor issues over many years then we will have to stop it at some point.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:50

@NavyandWhite

2 suspensions then banned then?

Whilst in an ideal world, we'd work on 3 strikes and we do loosely BUT and it's a big BUT - it all depends on the issue that arises at the time. If it's a big one then and they are on a 2nd strike, we may ban or even on a first if the issue is bad enough. It's not an exact science.

By big issue we mean really vile things posted or huge nasty personal attacks, out and out racism and alike.

TBH, that is rare from a MNetter who has been around for a while, more of a newbie thing.

We have and do mail MNetters if they post in an out of character way, just in case someone else has posted from their account, which has happened in the past.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 14:55

@OhYouBadBadKitten

I agree with ItsAllGoingToBeFine.

Firstly, there should be a consistent set number of warnings when people are sailing too close to the wind. Then if they cross the line something like the following could work:

Adding a divert to a page when they try to log in with either -

1)If it's for a dodgy comment and the person needs to be reviewed:
Your account has been suspended while we review it. If you have any queries then contact.....
This then should be reviewed within a stated, consistent and suitable time frame (2 working days?)

2)If it's for spam or something so so so outrageous, then:
We have removed your account for infringing site rules. If you wish to appeal then please contact....

Because just banning people without any word or reason could frankly drive some people over the edge and while mn aren't responsible for people's mental health, it's really not nice for them to end up being a direct contributor to their stresses, especially when people may have snapped and said something because they are already struggling.

The please contact us email address should not be the general contactus page, because it can feel like you are emailing into a black hole when mn get very busy. It also minimises acknowledgment that something potentially upsetting and big has been applied to a person. It should be a separate email address.

It would be much better for both users and mn I think if a consistent framework were applied.

Thanks OYBBK, We'll have a chat about this one. It would mean Tech work so not something we could do immediately but we will certainly consider it.

TBH, we tend to find folks who are really bothered will mail in, many will know full well why they have been banned and some are just trolls who we'd rather not engage with.
We'll have to gather some figures but I'd hazard a guess that the vast amount of bans happen to out and out trolls and not RL MNetters.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 14/11/2016 15:04

@Soubriquet

I'm sorry to keep bothering you Rebbecca

I understand you don't want to discuss it with me. That's fair enough. I don't expect you to

I also understand you don't want to talk to trolls. Again fair enough

But the poster in question is not a troll. She has never been suspended or banned before so this seems to be very heavy handed for someone who was never on the radar before.

It's not a bother at all, we will and do look and I know it can be hard but please do trust that we don't ban folks lightly. There could well be a reason that you are unaware of.

Apologies that we can't be more specific.

MNHQ

RebeccaMumsnet · 19/11/2016 21:22

@bumbleymummy

I'm an attempt to get the thread back on track...

MNHQ, could you explain why you can't contact us via PM as well as sending us an email? Since the whole Jeffrey thing I think more people are using random email addresses rather than ones that they would check regularly.

Hi bumbley,

Thanks for this. It's because our reports system is not integrated into the site, we use a mailing system that sends an email and not a PM. It makes managing emails much easier and searchable, our PM system doesn't have the bells and whistles that we'd need to manage the site as admins.

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