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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 17:22

I haven't read a recent disabilism thread no, the subject tends to wear me down a tad.

I agree with polter btw.

IrenetheQuaint · 11/11/2016 17:24

I support Justine and the team 99% of the way on this... Personal attacks on moderators are unforgivable and reflect a wider degeneration of tone across much of MN.

But honestly, you must have realised what you were letting yourself in for when you asked Paris to chair a session at Blogfest. This was a situation 100% certain to go nuclear.

MilkTwoSugarsThanks · 11/11/2016 17:26

MNHQ bites back Grin

It had to be said though, and I'm glad it has been.

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 17:27

This may be an error in my memory, but the "token disabled comment" (I don't think it was me, but I know I was there!) came from a disabled poster being told "we disagree with [whatever it was], we know about X as we have a disabled staff member"

It was an angry retort, not an insult that came from nowhere.

NowtSalamander · 11/11/2016 17:27

Agreed Justine. I think we ALL need to spend more time thinking about Voltaire saying "I disagree with what you've said but I will defend to the death your right to be a cock" [may have paraphrased]. We should think about how we respond to being offended by an articulate, reasoned response, not be silencing the offender with shouts of the nearest "ism".

You can't learn anything new in an echo chamber, and personally I'm here to learn. Mn has taught me so much. So thanks, as wellSmile

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 17:29

And as I said on the other thread, I have reported being directly called an -ist and been told it is not a personal attack. Only when applied to regular mners though, apparently.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:31

@IrenetheQuaint

I support Justine and the team 99% of the way on this... Personal attacks on moderators are unforgivable and reflect a wider degeneration of tone across much of MN.

But honestly, you must have realised what you were letting yourself in for when you asked Paris to chair a session at Blogfest. This was a situation 100% certain to go nuclear.

Well therein lies the problem I think. I'm afraid we're asking for more tolerance and thoughtfulness and less knee-jerk nuclear response.

OP posts:
NoSunNoMoon · 11/11/2016 17:32

Spot on, Justine.

As I said on another thread demanding MNHQ have diversity training -

I think people are too quick to shout Goady Fucker. New posters are accused of posting to cause trouble when, it seems to me, that often just isn't the case. They maybe haven't chosen their words very well but if they are new to MN they don't know how quick to take offence some people are.

They get jumped on from a great height and the thread derailed before it even starts, sometimes. Accusations of disablism are thrown where no offence was intended. Posters are accused of trying to start a bun fight when what they want is a bit of advice or support. Nit picking at the language used by posters who (it's apparent to me) may have LDs themselves is in itself disablist, frankly.

Not every member has the advantage of a good education and the gift of eloquence.

Attacking MNHQ as nastily as had happened over the last few months just isn't on, and I think MNHQ have been more than patient. A warning and a ban is what I think should happen. It's off-putting to new members and stifles debate. Deliberate use of any kind if "ist" language should, as ever, be moderated. But you do the right thing in cutting people some slack.

mirandayardley · 11/11/2016 17:34

Does mumsnet have a definition of what is 'transphobia'?

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:35

@BeyondReasonablyDoubts

And as I said on the other thread, I have reported being directly called an -ist and been told it is not a personal attack. Only when applied to regular mners though, apparently.

Happy to look into it Beyond if you think an injustice has been done - we don't always get things 100% right and if and when we don't, we'll always apologise. But you're wrong if you think we're less likely to delete a personal attack on a mnetter than a non-mnetter.

OP posts:
VincentVL · 11/11/2016 17:37

Women on the feminist boards were deleted for identifying a public figure (journalist) - who has published a shit ton of misogynist writing, and isnt posting on the threads - as a misogynist. We were told that calling them a misogynist was a personal attack. Women rightly pointed out that this is not how the personal attack rule works across the rest of mumsnet and in different situations.

Women were also deleted for using the word 'he' to describe the same (male public figure, not posting on the thread) person.

Women on those threads are asking for fair and consistent moderation, instead of the unpredictable deletions that are happening. Most of the pissed off comments about Justine werent about her moderation decisions, they were about the invitation to the above person to speak at Blogfest on 'blogging for a good cause' when they have a track record of attacking and harassing women online in their articles and social media in blatantly misogynist ways. And about Justine's really flippant and rude comments on the threads insinuating women were only objecting because theyre transphobes.

I dont know whats happened in the SN threads but the OP doesnt describe what has been happening in the feminist forum at all. I think the women there would be happy with far less moderation of their conversation and I would be shocked if any of them had called a mod a cunt!

TheTantrumCometh · 11/11/2016 17:39

I could off the mark here, because I think the aggression people have spoken of has been increasing a lot in recent years, but the current trend of people being called user679627272 doesn't help imo. It gives those users a certain anonymity almost. Of course they can name change but prior to this if a user you didn't see eye to eye (either goady, or just someone you're never going to get along with) with namechanged you could usually tell from their style of writing who it was. Now it's hard to mentally make that comparison because we can't keep up with the users and their numbers.

I don't know if that even makes any sense or whether I'm talking out of my arseBlush

Saucery · 11/11/2016 17:42

The posters insulting MNHQ haven't had User1234 names. They have had the requisite nomenclature that tells us something about them, as defined by MNHQ recently. They defined themselves further with their posts.

OurBlanche · 11/11/2016 17:42

I hope not Miranda as that would be MNHQs definition... not sure the world at large has a working version, yet!

Having been embroiled in a couple of unpleasantly shouty, accusatory threads, I am glad Justine has posted this.

I did/do fear losing the ability to discuss all sorts of difficult issues. It is hard to do so in real life and boards like this are very rare.

Long may we enjoy the privileges we are accorded here. Long may we continue to abuse them, push at the edges of acceptability. Long may we continue to learn new things about our world, ourselves and each other!

TresDesolee · 11/11/2016 17:42

if this turns into another thread about Paris sodding lees I swear to god I will throw my glass of squash at the wall and refuse to clean it up

mirandayardley · 11/11/2016 17:45

It seems a bit weird to be taking about transphobia when nobody knows what it is and what it is not. It's positively Kafka-esque.

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 17:45

It was a while ago Justine, I gave up reporting similar things after it. But I can forward the email over if you want

Thisjustinno · 11/11/2016 17:45

This had to be said and I agree.

I don't agree with all of MNHQs decisions (that's clear on another thread) but the constant demands of posters to do this or that..the passive aggressiveness such as 'still no response to my question at 8.38pm is telling isn't it?, guess we know what side MN is on'. And the clearer aggression and PA on Justine and MNHQ is just completely unacceptable.

It's not perfect. Nothing is. But you don't have to be here. This isn't your 'safe space'. No place is on the Internet. And you know what? this is one of the spaces that you can talk about things that many other websites would automatically shut down. And that still wasn't enough for some people and they still wanted to make demands, be rude and also complain about how fucking shit it is (while continuing to post obviously).

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:45

@mirandayardley

Does mumsnet have a definition of what is 'transphobia'?

I think there's a generally accepted definition of transphobia, Miranda - intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

As I've tried to explain, we're keen to host civilised discussion and debate. Clearly there as some things that are 'isms' that we'd all probably agree on but we're not going to be able to give you a comprehensive list of every word or phrase that's out of bounds - it depends on context and intent and as said we'd rather err on the side of free speech than censorship. Broadly speaking we think it matters whether your intention is to offend, be hurtful or rude - whether your intention is to argue against as opposed to shutting down contrary opinions.

OP posts:
JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:46

@BeyondReasonablyDoubts

It was a while ago Justine, I gave up reporting similar things after it. But I can forward the email over if you want

Please do

OP posts:
legotits · 11/11/2016 17:47

Fucks sake Justine TL:DR

Just tell us to have a word with ourselves.

Can I still come on the trip? Grin

usual · 11/11/2016 17:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VoyageOfDad · 11/11/2016 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 11/11/2016 17:48

Me too Tres

Saucery · 11/11/2016 17:51

I'm imagining Justine like this now.....

Mumsnet moderation policy