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Mumsnet moderation policy

26 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 16:32

@Ayeok

I think that aggression on MN in general is a problem. I'm not saying the team should be subjected to abusive comments or personal attacks, that's disgusting. But I can see how some posters get hacked off when it's happening to them and MNHQ don't seem to care.

But that's my point Ayeok - it's not that MNHQ don't care - we wouldn't leave personal attacks that were reported to us standing. If you feel this is happening consistently then it must because we don't consider those reports personal attacks and we're just never going to moderate the way you want us to.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 16:41

@Smartleatherbag

I agree with the overarching sentiment of this, but timing absolutely stinks of 'shut up, feminist board frequenters'

My post is of course partly prompted the hostility on the feminist boards wrt to our position on the transphobia debate, I've said as much I think. It's a genuine attempt to explain why we moderate the way we do and what we believe in, in the hope of finding some common ground so we can get to a better place.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:31

@IrenetheQuaint

I support Justine and the team 99% of the way on this... Personal attacks on moderators are unforgivable and reflect a wider degeneration of tone across much of MN.

But honestly, you must have realised what you were letting yourself in for when you asked Paris to chair a session at Blogfest. This was a situation 100% certain to go nuclear.

Well therein lies the problem I think. I'm afraid we're asking for more tolerance and thoughtfulness and less knee-jerk nuclear response.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:35

@BeyondReasonablyDoubts

And as I said on the other thread, I have reported being directly called an -ist and been told it is not a personal attack. Only when applied to regular mners though, apparently.

Happy to look into it Beyond if you think an injustice has been done - we don't always get things 100% right and if and when we don't, we'll always apologise. But you're wrong if you think we're less likely to delete a personal attack on a mnetter than a non-mnetter.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:45

@mirandayardley

Does mumsnet have a definition of what is 'transphobia'?

I think there's a generally accepted definition of transphobia, Miranda - intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

As I've tried to explain, we're keen to host civilised discussion and debate. Clearly there as some things that are 'isms' that we'd all probably agree on but we're not going to be able to give you a comprehensive list of every word or phrase that's out of bounds - it depends on context and intent and as said we'd rather err on the side of free speech than censorship. Broadly speaking we think it matters whether your intention is to offend, be hurtful or rude - whether your intention is to argue against as opposed to shutting down contrary opinions.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:46

@BeyondReasonablyDoubts

It was a while ago Justine, I gave up reporting similar things after it. But I can forward the email over if you want

Please do

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:53

@VincentVL

Women on the feminist boards were deleted for identifying a public figure (journalist) - who has published a shit ton of misogynist writing, and isnt posting on the threads - as a misogynist. We were told that calling them a misogynist was a personal attack. Women rightly pointed out that this is not how the personal attack rule works across the rest of mumsnet and in different situations.

Women were also deleted for using the word 'he' to describe the same (male public figure, not posting on the thread) person.

Women on those threads are asking for fair and consistent moderation, instead of the unpredictable deletions that are happening. Most of the pissed off comments about Justine werent about her moderation decisions, they were about the invitation to the above person to speak at Blogfest on 'blogging for a good cause' when they have a track record of attacking and harassing women online in their articles and social media in blatantly misogynist ways. And about Justine's really flippant and rude comments on the threads insinuating women were only objecting because theyre transphobes.

I dont know whats happened in the SN threads but the OP doesnt describe what has been happening in the feminist forum at all. I think the women there would be happy with far less moderation of their conversation and I would be shocked if any of them had called a mod a cunt!

You see I didn't think I was being flippant and rude on that thread (sorry for those who'd really rather not have to see any more about that thread) and I do, based on the definition I've just posted, think some of the posts we deleted were transphobic, others were goady and others were personal attacks. You obviously hold a different view which is your prerogative. What I'm saying is that we're not really going to change our minds - it's up to you whether you can live with that or not.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:53

@Saucery

I'm imagining Justine like this now.....

I'll take that Saucery Grin

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:55

@legotits

Fucks sake Justine TL:DR

Just tell us to have a word with ourselves.

Can I still come on the trip? Grin

Sorry! What trip Confused?

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 17:57

@mirandayardley

Justinemumsnet

Sounds to me like you are defining it by reference to the poster's intent as perceived by whichever moderator is on call. This is rather subjective?

I have seen posts deleted by yourself and other moderators for 'misgendering', does this mean that females on this board are obliged to accept males as women?

There's no other way to do it that we've works I'm afraid - as said there are grey areas and context is important.

We've deleted posts which were misgendering a guest of ours at Blogfest, yes, as explained at the time we viewed this as a deliberately goady personal attack in the same way we would an attack on a webchat guest.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:01

@BitOutOfPractice

Whilst I 100% agree with what you've said Justine - and got the record I am totally against any personal attacks and aggression against the Community Team, I do see a bit of a dichotomy in your argument.

On one hand you're saying that we have to tolerate and see upsetting and offensive posts staying up in the interests of debate be of education.

On the other hand, posters are not allowed to criticise MN and it's moderation policies. They are above the rules.

I realise, from personal experience, what a fine line you are treading. But that seemed to glare out at me. "We defend your right to slag off anyone or anything - so long as it's not us"

Of course you're allowed to criticise! It's the endless heckling of and aggression towards MNQH I'm objecting to - as said almost none of the comments criticising and indeed abusing us have been deleted. But it's just gone too far. I really can't in all conscience ask our community team - who are very professional and doing their best to be fair - to put up with it any more.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:03

@PickAChew

Completely missing the point here, Justine, but I'm quite intrigued by your fancy pants quotes. Will we all be getting that?

Why thank you. It's been discussed a few times whether it would be a good idea or not - broadly users were against it last time it came up. But feel free to start a separate thread in site stuff about it - happy to consider again.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:05

@BitOutOfPractice

And btw isn't it MN etiquette to say "apologies. Long!" Before an epic post like that? Wink

You're right. Apologies!

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:09

@Backingvocals

I think your suggestion that the women on that thread opposed PL because she was trans was goady. It certainly wasnt "thoughtful" which is what you've rightly requested of others.

I thought it was quite thoughtful actually - it specifically asked people to look at things from another perspective and it was merely a suggestion, not an accusation or a statement of fact.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:11

@Amalfimamma

Justine

think there's a generally accepted definition of transphobia, Miranda - intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Tbh i don't think I've seen this on the trans threads and I've been present on most if not all since August.

What I do see are the usual suspects coming in, throwing out words like transphobia, bigot and the such and when asked to point out exactly was transphobic they flounce.

Calling a misogynist by such a name after they have threatened, insulted and derided women, and especially mumsnet posters is the truth and not half as big an insult as needed in this case. I do not agree with PA against the MN team though. Or other posters. But PA don't get my goat nearly half as much as the constant troll hunting that is all to frequent on all sections.

I think I've seen a bit tbh Amalfimamma but we can obviously agree to disagree on that. And we'd agree that troll hunting is a problem too and certainly not confined to one area of the site. We do try to discourage it.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:13

@Xenophile

On the whole though, MN's moderation policy is reasonable and fair. It just seems to have gone a wee bit haywire over the last couple of weeks. No doubt sanity will return at some point, and until then, we'll all just have to hunker down and post innocuous threads about Tupperware or something Grin

That could well be cos I've got a wee bit more involved Xeno Smile

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:22

@VincentVL

Justine - you implied more than once that posters objected to your guest because they are transphobic, while refusing to acknowledge the very serious problems that we actually have with them.

You were asked to clarify what the rules are on personal attacks because previously the rule has been described as not applying to public figures who are not posting on Mumsnet. You said that it also applied to your Blogfest guests. Posters pointed out that personal comments made about other Blogfest guests werent being deleted elsewhere on Mumsnet and you ignored the inconsistency.

Also, the "personal attacks" deleted included using the word "he" to describe a male person, and using the word "misogynist" for the same person. But you described their calling women bitches etc as (paraphrase) 'something they did in the past and might regret' when there is no evidence of regret and abundant evidence they are still using their platform to insult women (generally and individually).

Women are asking you for consistency and respect and youre treating them (us) like plebs.

VincentVL - we can go over every bit of this again and again - I don't accept your description of what happened on the thread and you clearly don't accept mine. I believe some of the comments on the thread were transphobic, you don't. I don't think a thread discussing how fanciable Ed Balls is, with most people saying they fancy him and a very few saying they don't (and which I highly doubt was reported and so the community team probably wouldn't have seen) is akin to the unmitigated attacks on Paris Lees. I don't think I'm disrespecting or treating anyone like plebs - we just have a different opinion.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:25

@MorrisZapp

I was firmly on MN side during recent furores over disablism and diabetes.

But in light of their decision to invite PL to chair an event about 'blogging for good' my view has crystalised further. Not only do MN not need to go on a diversity course, they need deprogramming from whatever diversity awareness training has led them to think that outspoken critics of feminism are to be celebrated if they used to be male.

Stop the madness.

MorrisZapp I don't agree. I'm sorry if that makes you feel angry or marginalised. You have a right to your opinion but you're not going to change our minds. And by the way, we're all feminists in this team.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:26

@WaitrosePigeon

I'm sorry you and other members of your team have had to endure the wrath of some of the domineering people on this site - it's not okay.

I and I'm sure many other members agree that we recognise how hard your job is and it is impossible to make everyone happy.

Thank you for all you do Flowers

Thank you. Much appreciated Flowers

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:27

@JennyHolzersGhost

Hi Justine - thanks for posting this. In the spirit of teaching I'm going to give 2 stars and a wish Grin
  1. 'not in the spirit of MN' covers a multitude of modding sins - while having the benefit of being true! A useful phrase for mods when making marginal judgment calls.

  2. accountability (you've heard from me before on this) - good stuff. Keep it up and encourage mods to engage where possible. I think it helps separate out the reasonable types - who appreciate the engagement even if they don't agree with the decision - from the permanently disgruntled types, who I'm afraid you're never going to get rid of completely.

  3. consistency and clarity - would be useful to have more of it. I appreciate that with a modding team you're always going to get differences of approach so it's ultimately down to the judgment of whoever is on duty. But most posters who don't intend to be an irritant end up becoming one when it's not clear what they can say and what they can't. It's upsetting if you're a law-abiding member of the community to be deleted and ticked off, and it gets people's backs up, particularly if the explanation isn't clear or doesn't feel fair. I appreciate I may be contradicting point 1 here Grin but sometimes it's helpful to have a clearer idea of where the line is.

Hope you don't mind me giving my 5p-worth. Star to all the mods, it's a tough job.

Agree with all that Jenny and we promise to do our best!

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:34

@MorrisZapp

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about what a feminist is, as well as what a woman is.

I accept it's impossible to please everyone and I'm so grateful that Spartacus was allowed to happen here. I can't think of any other site which would have allowed it. I feel that it ignited something in me which won't die down, and the lack of censorship was a blessed relief. I would never abuse a moderator and accept that those who do must absolutely be dealt with.

You sayin' I ain't no feminist Shock Wink.
Thank you for your thanks and for your support re moderator abuse.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:46

@SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus

Posters on the threads about PL at blog fest were asking for LESS moderation. Some of the decisions made about what to delete make NO sense at all.

I do believe whoever was moderating the discussion was very heavy handed. And some posters were deleted possibly even by mistake, by a moderator who was in a hurry and was applying a blanket rule that wasn't entirely clear to posters.

I agree that personal attacks on the MN staff should not be tolerated anywhere on the site.

That would be mostly me, and you won't be surprised to find I disagree with you. I deleted posts that were IMHO personal attacks, transphobic and/or deliberately goady. It's quite possible that my stance was more interventionist than other mods may have been. That's partly because of the guest issue that I've explained - I felt a personal responsibilty to an individual who I'd invited to Blogfest as our guest and partly because it's probably easier for a Founder to take a stand on something in the face of a lot of dissent/criticism.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 18:53

@Saucery

Do you think you have enough employees on your Community Team, Justine?

Quite a few of the problems which lead to frustration seem to come from moderation being limited to more or less office hours and silly mistakes as illustrated above ('he' wrt to Donald Trump).

We actually have a system whereby the community team is manned from 7am-11pm seven days a week. I do think members sometimes have unreasonable about expectations about response time - generally we get to a report within a couple of hours. And often much sooner if it's multiply reported. You won't find that with most sites - as someone mentioned on this thread, Twitter for example is more like 2 days. Sometimes it might be that a mod is unsure and seeking a second opinion, which I also think is fair enough. Most forums actually have unpaid mods. We've been fairly unique in investing in a large team who (contrary to popular view) get a fair bit of training and have an awful lot of expertise.

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 19:01

@VincentVL

Justine - what do you consider an 'unmitigated attack' on Paris Lees?

There are numerous very considered arguments on those threads as to why Paris Lees is a completely innappropriate person to invite to speak on 'blogging for good', including that they use social media and their articles for Vice etc to bully and harass named women, including some mumsnet bloggers, and that by giving PL credibility Mumsnet excuses and enables their cyber bullying.

I dont think you or anyone else from Mumsnet have yet made any response to those comments, other than to suggest that posters wouldnt be complaining if PL wasnt trans.

Thats what I mean by flippant.

There were some considered arguments and there were some personal attacks and some transphobic posts that were deleted. As I've pointed out a few times PLs has made some comments I heartily disagree with. Those views are shared however by and awful lot of women. Re the bullying I agree that sounds unpleasant, and I'm not going to try to defend it - maybe someone will ask her about that at blogfest - but I would say that I am quite sure PL's been the target of much worse bullying (I mean from everywhere not MN here).

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 19:03

Right I'm sorry for those I've not answered by I have to bugger off now - am late for something. And I've Blogfest tomorrow so probably won't be on but thanks for all the feedback and for the support, do keep it coming and I'll check back in soonest. Meantime the lovely community team will be here!

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