Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent your daughter is so so lucky to have you there supporting and questioning the ethics behind it all and pushing aside the activism and agendas.

Its is the exact same experience my friend had. The 'you're a woman!' was forced upon him when he questioned whether he was a he or a she so much so that he had breast implants in a hope to make it better. It was only with a fully qualified, unbiased and experienced therapist he was able to explore his identity and came to the conclusion he was in fact a man. Thankfully for him his procedure was reversible leaving only scars.

It makes me so sad that there are boys and girls who feel so much shame in their bodies they want to change and I can't help feeling feminism has failed them :(

The posts on this thread and the others are by and large not saying we shouldn't employ trans people or that trans people should not be utterly free to live their lives as they want to. What the majority of posts are saying is that trans people should be free to live how they want but that they are not the opposite sex and where there are safe spaces or positive discrimination in favour of that opposite sex then the trans person probably should not be entitled to access it.

On the whole, this reflects my views. The one exception is that, frankly, I can't get too worked up about transwomen using Ladies' toilets. I already share the use of toilets with men both at work and at home, I'm in a cubicle, no-one is going to see anything, and I strongly suspect I wouldn't even notice if a trans woman came in.

But I don't see how this leads to an insistence that we call transwomen "he". So far as I'm concerned, it takes nothing away from me to refer to them as she; it doesn't make me feel in any way insecure about my identity, and I think generally it is simple human consideration. The exception would be transwomen who expect to have penetrative sex with women or who are hanging on to the advantages of male power in other ways.

But where I think these threads become faintly ridiculous is when it throws up posts like this:

Will mumsnet become like this? Where we can't talk about post birth bleeding, leaking nipples, abortion, cervical cancer, ovarian cancer, vulvas, vaginas, PCOS, endometriosis, IBS that is really affected by our oestrogen levels rising and falling, pre menstural migraines all because it might be triggering to a MtF trans person.

MN have never for one moment suggested they would do this, and indeed there is no trend in wider society to stop women talking about exclusively female issues - objections to that are within an extremely limited group who simply have no credibility or support outside their own very very small circle. So working ourselves up into a frenzy about something that isn't happening and which no-one has suggested will happen within MN really takes away our own credibility.

I'm in a cubicle, no-one is going to see anything, and I strongly suspect I wouldn't even notice if a trans woman came in.

You might if the transwoman presented as a male. You are also obviously lucky enough to have no reason to fear males, and like and trust those you live and work with.

The exception would be transwomen who expect to have penetrative sex with women or who are hanging on to the advantages of male power in other ways.

It could be argued that as transwomen were socialized as men, with all that male privilege brings that they can't really avoid it. How on earth do separate out transwomen who use their penis and male privilege, and those who don't?

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent - thank you so much for sharing your experience. I'm really pleased to hear that your daughter is now more at peace with herself, it sounds like you handled the situation incredibly well and she is lucky to have you.

Notme, I don't think there is an insistence on that - can you point to a post?Several people have said that although we would usually used preferred pronouns in private, everyday conversation, we may object to being forced to do so in a public, contested, political space, or similar. A range of views on this have been expressed on this and other threads.

Maybe not banned, but certainly deleted. Also it was my understanding that users had been banned for "persistent misgendering"...

At least one was banned for outright bullying.

So free speech is not allowed where it may cause offence or hurt to someone?

MN's rules have always been that personal attacks, deliberate provocation and discrimination aren't allowed. If you view that as a restriction on free speech, so be it.

You are saying that the entire body of science is less important than maintaining the fiction that a transwoman is a woman.

Actually, in normal everyday conversation I don't really think that total scientific accuracy is more important than ordinary human courtesy. Science is not going to crumble into dust because I call Jan Morris "she", and no woman is going to be harmed if I do so.

Someone on another thread said they would refer to someone like Jan Morris as "she" to her face but not if they were talking about her on here. This is someone who has been living as a woman for around 60 years and is generally known in that persona. Describing her as "he" would be scientifically accurate but what does it achieve other than being unnecessarily rude and offensive?

So working ourselves up into a frenzy about something that isn't happening and which no-one has suggested will happen within MN really takes away our own credibility.

Just a couple of examples that I was aware of, I'm sure that there are more...

"In 2014, with little consultation, MANA decided that being a woman was not a necessary or relevant factor for being a mother. They edited their core competencies document, and in effect ordered practitioners to stop referring to clients as “women” and “mothers” demanding they say “pregnant people” and “birthing individuals” instead."
www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/29/transphobic-midwives-must-say-birthing-individuals-not-offend-breastfeeding-transgender-dad/

"Students at the all-female liberal arts school Mount Holyoke College have decided to break with a decade-long tradition of putting the play on at Valentine’s Day, arguing that it does not do enough to include transgender people and people of colour."

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/16/vagina-monologues-eve-ensler-rejects-mount-holyoke-college-claims-reductionist-exclusive

This is what is cult like and pretty terrifying - children and young people questioning themselves, as is entirely natural and normal, being pushed into being trans by adults who should know better

I actually came across a person selling packers (basically fake penises to put in your pants to have a male looking bulge for those who don't know)

These were made in various sizes for children from age 4 and over. Some are designed to allow girls to 'pee like a boy'.

I don't know what planet everyone else is living in but this for me is wrong its encouraging shame in girls because their anatomy is different and needs a device to change it :(

I'm not going to post the link because tracking will light up mumsnet and we'll get the TRAs hijacking in their droves like the last time I shared a link to similar items. the link is available through 4twavenow though 4thwavenow.com/2015/09/26/san-francisco-company-selling-packers-for-trans-boys-ages-4-and-up/

I will add - If you are an adult over 18 and choose to use this sort of item for yourself. I have no problem with it.

MN have never for one moment suggested they would do this, and indeed there is no trend in wider society to stop women talking about exclusively female issues

Actually NotMe there is. A quick google or search on Twitter and you will find transactivists saying that exclusively female discussion topics are discriminatory because it is 'trans-exclusionary'.

This is dangerous rhetoric and the last place I would expect to find it is MN but so far MNHQ have provided no reassurance that transactivism is unwelcome on MN.

It could be argued that as transwomen were socialized as men, with all that male privilege brings that they can't really avoid it. How on earth do separate out transwomen who use their penis and male privilege, and those who don't?

It's probably a case by case basis. The few transwomen I have come across personally have basically lived as women and don't benefit from any male privilege; rather the contrary.

Somewhat off-topic, but the reason the 'Bathroom Bill' was such a big deal in the US is because of the lack of privacy in US toilet cubicles. There are normally huge gaps under, over and to the sides which mean people outside are pretty well visible to those inside, and vice versa. There's even a Buzzfeed article about it.

So in the UK where toilet cubicles are generally more private, you get people walking around saying 'I don't get what the big deal is'.

Someone on another thread said they would refer to someone like Jan Morris as "she" to her face but not if they were talking about her on here. This is someone who has been living as a woman for around 60 years and is generally known in that persona. Describing her as "he" would be scientifically accurate but what does it achieve other than being unnecessarily rude and offensive?

Unless you speak very oddly you would not use pronouns when talking to a person, and I have no issue in using a persons chosen name.

It is possible to talk about a transperson accurately and inoffensively without mangling the English language or ignoring basic facts by simply using "they" or the persons name...

It's probably a case by case basis. The few transwomen I have come across personally have basically lived as women and don't benefit from any male privilege; rather the contrary.

Problem is, you can't legislate on a case by case basis (other than for eg referring to a GRC)

NonHypothetical, thank you for your post - I hope MNHQ see it and take it to heart.

The idea of 'trans' being applied to prepubescent children ... just stop forcing kids into genderised boxes FFS. Support them to be themselves. Let Kids be Kids.

(sorry - conflating two trains of thoughts, I know hypo's DD wasnt prepubescent. Older children shouldn't be forced into genderised boxes either but with access to the internet they may apply 'trans' to themselves so its a lot less simple than with little kids where it should all be irrelevant.)

Let's all just shut up then?

Thank you, I'll take clever and understanding! Though I was mainly just lucky to grow up surrounded 70s firecracker feminists!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine I think a lot of the TA movement does use cult-like methods. Critical thinking is shut down and questions ignored. It's very much pushed that salvation will come from transitioning. It's important that we a free to express this opinion.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery I'm not sure it's feminism that's failed children who want to transition. It could be argued that it's society as a whole. However, I've noticed, over the last 4 years, the change in clinicians views. For children it used to be very much a sit back wait and see attitude. Studies have shown a range of between 66% - 90% of children who present as transgender grow out of it and present as their biological gender, but the majority will be either gay, lesbian or bisexual.

There's been a shift in the way children are treated at the Tavistock clinic. It's no longer a case of waiting and seeing, it seems to be more you're trans lock stock and barrel. For that I lay the blame on TAs and trans charities, who push the 'they must transition or they'll die' rhetoric.

Notme, the whole point of the toilets thing is that it's consistently used as the thin end of the wedge. If transwomen are entitled to access sex-segregated toilets set aside for women they then demand access to other women-only spaces.

Male socialization is like white socialization, Notme. Males may reject it but it affects and privileges them in ways they may not even notice. Male privilege is so pervasive it's like water for fish. You only recognize it if you actually look for it. "Living as a woman", which is a totally meaningless phrase in my opinion, does nothing to remove male privilege. No. To have any chance of rejecting male socialization, any man, regardless of gender presentation, needs to spend significant time and analysis to examine its role in their life.

"Identifying" as a woman does nothing to eradicate male privilege. Indeed in many cases it seems, oddly enough, that TAs express more male socialization than most ordinary men. None of the men in my immediate circle would dream of claiming that they understood or could speak for women's experience of living in their sexed bodies., , ,

LurkingParent

So happy for you and your daughter

I sure as hell hate many actions of some sects of society, however that doesn't make it OK to actively discriminate against them!

Late coming on today and still reading through, but actually WTF at this? Noone is discriminating against anyone in saying female only spaces should remain female only spaces as females need thier female only spaces and men should not be able to infiltrate them?! Is this the thinking of the TAs and such, that is it discriminating to not allow men to do whatever the fuck they please? I have no issue with trans people and I think most just want to go about their lives in peace. The minority shout up and cause trouble that is not needed. Me saying I would not be comfortable changing clothes in a room of guys is a problem now because those guys could simply 'identify as' (ie. 'think they are') women in their pink brains. Bollocks.

However nice attempt to shut down the conversation. I am starting to see the tactics used now.

Unless you speak very oddly you would not use pronouns when talking to a person, and I have no issue in using a persons chosen name.

But you might in their presence, e.g. in a three or four way conversation - e.g. "When Jan says XXX, I think she means ..." It would be rude to say "he" in that context and I think it's equally rude if she's not present. And it would be mad to say "When Jan says XXX, I think Jan means ..." or "When Jan says XXX, I think they mean ..."

If transwomen are entitled to access sex-segregated toilets set aside for women they then demand access to other women-only spaces.

It's not how it happens, though, is it? No-one has to ask permission to use a designated toilet - indeed, I've known women very firmly walk into the Gents at public venues where there are long queues in the Ladies'. If you're using something like a refuge or a Rape Crisis Centre, you will very quickly have to engage with someone who can and does say that trans women aren't allowed in. I know the concern is that we might reach a point when discrimination laws don't allow that, but given that it is not even a formal proposal as yet via a Green Paper and the strong likelihood is that exceptions like this would be written in, I'll worry about it only if or when it looks more likely.

To call her anything but female just feels awfully disrespectful and rude. She is a woman in every way possible. I met her 10 years ago and she is very glad she had gender reassignment surgery, she waited 8 years to make sure it was the right decision. And for her it absolutely was. If most on here met her, or were speaking about her, I expect the correct pronouns and such would be adhered to out of respect. The issue here (for me) is the trans gender movement has been hijacked by a bunch of men who simply 'self identifiy' as women and expect to be able to impose their will on women because of this. This is simply not on and tbh, I would expect transsexuals and women alike to be standing up saying that this is wrong and shouldn't be happening. As a lesbian too (sorry but in this situation your sexuality is kind of important) I would assume you would find the way you are described by said men disgusting and I do wonder if you have ever looked up the term cotton ceiling? These men think they have a right to whatever the fuck they wish, including your body. You are now transphobic for refusing to such a lady penis...hows that? Its a horrible situation all around but the standing up against it is necessary right now due to how the movement is. Before all of this stupidness, you would have been hard pushed to find anyone who had an issue with transsexuals. Unfortunately as things now stand, these disgusting misogynistic men are...identifying...for want of a better word, as transsexuals and noone is willing to speak up against it for fear of not being 'PC' and this is when the shit hits the fan as if noone speaks up and it is assumed that a 'guy in a frock' is the same as a genuine transexual...transsexual people are tarred with the same brush as the blokes. Which isn't right, but thats how it goes. I know ONE transsexual and speak to a few online, but not one of them feels they have the right to impose on womens spaces..they do not wish to make people feel uncomfortable, they simply wish to live out their lives in peace, they especially do not think they have the right to guilt trip and label lesbians into shagging them. These people are caught in the crossfire here...which is why the trans-agenda is damaging for both women, and trans people alike. It is unfortunate that it has ended like this, but I honestly cannot see another way out, besides women just rolling over and allowing the wishes of men to deplete their own rights.

I think I may have read that post wrong. I took it to be, you were with Natasha rather than living with her, as such my lesbian assumption. Sorry