Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

Fantastic post, Prawn. I really hope MNHQ take a look at that site.

I think MN's position on this is reasonable (and frankly restrained). I would also say that lots of questionable posts are allowed to stand.

If my business was website based, and users tried to force change by making demands on the website and declaring my actions/policy on something to be 'fucking bullshit', I wouldn't be so tolerant.

'Well, I'd argue that by creating a safe space for parents to critically analyse what the trans agenda is doing to their kids, that MNHQ is going to be on precisely the right side of history. '

This.

I am about as far from a RadFem as you can get tbh, and I am gender critical. It is ridiculous to keep putting everyone who agrees with biology and disagrees with pink/blue brain rubbish into the same box to try and insult them with TERF and such.

For clarity, I do not think the feminists would have me..especially given my views on the likes of porn and prostitution and such. But I will never agree that there is such thing as a female penis...

Excellent post Prawn.

In my dealings with clinicians they are either scared to speak out and so talk in a kind of code (a bit like politicians!) or they positively advocate transition.

I said up-thread that in certain meetings I've been afraid to voice my views and concerns in case I'm seen as a threat to my daughter's well being.

Another excellent site is Transgender trend. It's packed full of articles deconstructing trans issues.

Regarding Mumsnet sponsors it would not surprise me if the charity Mermaids was one. There's an interesting article on Transgender Trend on their CEO who advocates the use of puberty blockers on children questioning their gender. Mermaids also want the age that hormones can be prescribed to children to be lowered in certain cases:

“Basing it on an age is completely inappropriate,” said Susie Green, head of Mermaids, a charity that works with trans children and their families. “We believe it should be in line with the young person’s maturity and their ability to understand what’s involved and the implications of what treating and not treating are.”

My daughter is quite mature in her thinking (sometimes). At 13 she was adamant that chest surgery and hormones were right for her. She knew she was right (a common misconception that all teenagers have). Now, however, she can see how she was brainwashed into thinking that just because she preferred to play with the boys in primary school and liked Power Rangers, that it didn't make her a male. The genderfication of practically everything these days has a LOT to answer for.

Yes, WankingMonkey (love that name, reminds me of a formative childhood experience - God, my poor mother was embarrassed) - I wouldn't have described myself as a RadFem either, at least not until this issue kicked off. Now, if thinking that gender is made up bollocks and that biology matters makes me a RadFem then I guess I must be.

As for TERF... It's only ever used as an insult/silencing tactic. My understanding is that TW are excluded from radical feminism because they aren't women, whereas TM are included because they are. TM seem often to be fuelled by self-hatred, some being young lesbians - and I feel great concern for them.

Article with extensive quotes from Susie Green here: "“She’d go into my wardrobe, put on dresses and she even put my bra on at 18 months." She gave evidence to Maria Miller's committee and claims in that (rather muddled) article that the nursery staff had never encountered a boy who played with girls and "took the female role in games" before...extraordinary.

Bizzare ... when my DD was little she very often took the male role in pretend games - Mr McGregor, the Tailor of Gloucester, Daddy Bear... She went through a phase of calling herself Peter. She never showed the remotest sign of rejecting being a girl. When her yr1 teacher dismissed her 'what do you want to be when you grow up' with 'Girls cant be builders' her response was outrage at the stupidity of the teacher - of course girls can be builders. (she's going to be an engineer, not a brickie )

This is of course entirely commonplace. If nursery staff hadn't seen little boys adopting female roles, either they weren't very good observers or (sadly) its less common than little girls playing boy parts because the inferiority of women in society and stereotypically female activities is inculcated at such a young age.

Ah, I hadn't thought about mn having links with mermaids before. That is certainly a possibility, isn't it...

I don't believe SG. The HT in the article says it happens all the time and teaching friends and my own dc and their friends confirm this.

Same here. DS and a male friend used to physically fight over the sparkly princess dresses

Awesome post prawn

prawn awesome - thank you!

Thing is, people think medicine is all science, but there are fashions in medicine just like in anything else
That, with bells on.
Medicine is an art which also uses science. The science is constantly changing as we learn more things, and the 'first do no harm' assertion seems to overlooked when agreeing to medically transitioning v young people/prepubescent children.

My brother used to dress in my grandmas clothes, as did me and my sister. I 'roleplayed' as Peter Pan on a few occasions that I can remember (innocently..as a child before anything starts )

Odd that these days I would have been eyed up as a potential transman because of this. Or so it seems

"At 13 she was adamant that chest surgery and hormones were right for her. She knew she was right (a common misconception that all teenagers have)."

Holy fcking Christ, NonHypotheticalLurkingParent, that's terrifying. What you must have gone through! Thank goodness you got her out of it in time. MNHQ, these are the parents you need to be thinking about. The current fashionable consensus is doing harm, sometimes permanent harm, to thousands of children and young adults.

There are big chunks of homophobia in this mix. Most children who express gender issues in childhood will develop into homosexual, not transsexual, adults. Here is a link which documents the research.

That young people who question their gender very often turn out to be gay or lesbian accounts for the popularity of the "my child is transgender" in the American Bible Belt where it's a lot more acceptable to have a trans child than a homosexual one. Parents of trans kids are "brave" and "inspirational", whereas parents of a lesbian are seen as failures with their child a dirty secret.

I do hope that MN isn't receiving funds from organizations which support gender transition for children. That would compromise the site's independence, and also completely go against its consistent support for reason and science in all parenting matters. The anti-vaxx business comes to mind. Would MN have taken money from them?

However I suspect it's more likely the site is being so dithery because HQ is under fire from TAs and their supporters. TAs are immensely dedicated to shutting down debate and will do anything, including issuing death and rape threats, to get their way. Sites can be taken down by hacking or other attacks. This sort of thing would really damage MN and I can see they might be intimidated.

But I'd remind them that so very many of us here love and support this site. We have fun on it, we chat, but more importantly we trust it, many of us have trusted it in very dark times. Some of us lurk - quite a few de-lurked on the Spartacus thread. We want it to continue being a beacon of light. Please, MNHQ, hold firm. Do not let us down by allowing the TAs to silence us. This issue matters so much to parents and children, and it is the biggest threat to women's rights in a 100 years.

Blimey - my DS tried to put my bra on once - that proves that he needs to transition!

DD dressed up a pirate chief at the weekend - that proves she needs to transition!

Still, at least I'll still have "one of each", eh

I still don't understand how/why this has become such a huge issue here (UK/Europe) when a lot of the madness seems to stem from US fundamentalism?

There was a horrific thread not that long ago about young girls first sexual experiences. A shocking number/percentage had anal sex as a first experience because it was seen as a. not leading to pregnancy and b. not 'really' being sex as it was preserving the all important virginity. FFS.
It's the 21st century, not that that is obvious by the way some people's belief systems work.

Most medics really aren't scientists. They will have some excellent science A levels, and their discipline relies heavily on science but that does not mean that they are scientists. Some are, others aren't.

I don't envy anyone working in this field. I can see why 'first do no harm' may lead some to the puberty blockers, because for some transsexuals, developing a male or female physique may be harmful. But as it seems that puberty blockers also affect mental maturation, it doesn't provide the simple breathing space for the child to grow up in quite the way that presumably is intended.

Both my sons did various gender non-conforming things, including twirling naked round the kitchen while wearing sparkly heels and a pink boa (age 4, not 24 ). Never crossed my mind that this was weird. It isn't.

Both my sons did various gender non-conforming things, including twirling naked round the kitchen while wearing sparkly heels and a pink boa (age 4, not 24 grin). Never crossed my mind that this was weird. It isn't.

Yes..DS (2) has an obsession with his sisters shoes right now. More particularly any ones with heels (vvv low) and sparkles. Now, He can have his own sparkly heeled shoes if he wants them, that doesn't bother me, but at the moment I don't think he is steady enough to walk in them without potentially damaging his ankle if he falls. To some I would be denying his the 'experience' of 'being a little girl'

We let him chose his own shoes within reason and he ALWAYS goes for 'lad' style trainers or boots. However the obsession with sparkly ones continues behind closed doors. Heh, sound so sinister eh

I see NO link between dressing up as a kid and being trans. I really don't and if this is a major issue in it all then thats a little sad as really..there are no clothes that either sex couldn't wear if they wanted to. Yes they may get funny looks from strangers but the more people just be themselves and wear whatever the fuck they want instead of deciding that wearing dresses means you actually are a woman...the sooner the stigma disappears. THIS would be progression.

Is there any child who hasn't done something 'non-gender conforming? I'd be more worried about those TBH.

prawn, good post. I have been chewing over the similarities between false memory, satanic panic and transing children for a couple of weeks now. So many echoes...the people involved are (mostly) coming from a good place, a place of wanting to centre and believe children, but actually ultimately harming them. Chilling. Because now, of course, we look back and say "what the hell was everyone thinking?!".

Prawn we have been through a lot in the last 4 years. Your points about homophobia are spot on. My daughter a lesbian. At school she got more support being a transboy than she did being a lesbian. The shift in people's behaviour was chilling really. As a lesbian she got abuse and one teacher even tried to blame her for being open about her sexuality (wrong on so many levels). Being trans gave her a protected status.

I don't know if Mermaids is sponsoring Mumsnet, but they do have a lot of power and are constantly lobbying for their beliefs on how trans children should be treated to become the gold standard. So it would not surprise me if they have at least contacted MNHQ.

The reason it's travelled so quickly from America is, I think, the Internet. We're one big global village now and access to information is instant, that's why it's important all views on transgender should be allowed to be debated without fear.

nonhypothetical, your and your daughter's story is so powerful. I'm sorry you've been put through that. I don't know how else to put it without sounding like a nob, so here, please have some un-mumsnetty viper-y flowers

OMG children have twirled in their mummy's heels since, well, since heels have been invented! How can this kind of important child's play be interpreted as them having even remotely transexual tendencies?

I am really quite angry about this.
My heart goes out to those who are transexual - it cannot be an easy life.
But being under the impression that one 'helps' or 'supports' a trouble child/teenager by allowing/encouraging intervention that are potentially irreversible is just plain nuts.