I am concerned at offers of money, goods and toys here

[trudgingalong]

I am certainly filled with the Christmas spirit but a website for parents (well, I always consider mumsnet a website for women really, although I know some men post here) is going to be like a neon light for chancers and for frauds.

When posters offer money, even as a loan, toys, food or goods such as electrics or whatever, it encourages posters of this nature.

It's also often embarrassing for genuine posters who just want advice/and or a few encouraging words about happy Christmases without a thousand gifts, as when money is offered even when they refuse it puts them in an awkward position, and a question mark over their sincerity.

Is there any chance we could have a site rule about this? I realise PMs are harder to police of course but I just feel that however kindly meant this is a 'solution' that benefits no one.

I really doubt it's directed at you, Luxy. I'm really glad someone could help you out. You must have been furious when you saw your children's clothes on eBay - were they sent to a Mumsnetter? If so I hope you put in a complaint.

It isn't directed at anybody. I have reported one thread today - not because I don't believe the OP is genuine, but because I believe she is - and it's only a matter of time before someone accuses her of not being genuine.

Assuming all posts from people in need are begging ones is the worst possible outcome.

If people ask about recipes give them advice about recipes. Scammers have got nothing and people in need have got the help they asked for.

I've asked for cheap recipe advice before, and got some excellent tips.

A special phone for MNers to ring? Wtf? This is an actual poster, not MNHQ?
Someone is seriously over-invested, and I say that as someone who's been here ten years!

Yes, a special anonymous mobile. Just for MNers in need.

Luxy - absolutely. Yet that doesn't apply here, does it?

Mumsnet can and do pull posts they feel are not genuine. Why bother, we might say -
people can choose whether they respond or not.

Mumsnet can and rightly do pull posts that are disabilitist or homophobic, but with that argument - why? We're adults.

The answer is obvious - because it has a detrimental impact on the site as a whole. So do the well meaning offers of money and other things, I feel.

I would be in favour of a specific area for swapping or similar but as a pass it on thing - not a charity.

I'm not sure that follows, trudging.

In reality, MN probably pull disabilist and homophobic posts because they don't want to sued for them. They have all the standard disclosures about not endorsing users opinions but British law is an odd thing, and they could found jointly liable for allowing them to stand.

They pull posts that aren't genuine because troll threads will stop people from visiting MN, and that will affect revenue.

Even if they do feel that both of the above have a detrimental impact on the site as a whole - and they both do - it isn't the sole reason for deletion.

I don't think MNers helping each other out is so clear cut. Obviously any case where someone goes without to feed someone else, or strangers meet, etc, is risky and therefore potentially detrimental.

I wouldn't accept money or food from people online, my pride wouldn't let me, but some people can and if person A has it spare and person B needs it, as long as those two people are both happy, it isn't detrimental to the site - infact it's probably beneficial, because it shows a strong and supportive community, and advertisers will love that.

Luxy I think I may have been on the same thread. I was going through a horrible patch at the beginning of the summer (thankfully things are a little better now) and some incredibly generous MNers sent me toiletries, children's clothes + books and a toilet seat ( - not your average begging item I'm sure!) - and also one very generous lady sent me some cash to treat me and my DC's one day during the summer holidays. said mner later got called out on another thread as being full of shit for recalling helping someone out in a shop, she's just a good and kind woman

I was very, very low at that point and it honestly warmed my heart to think of these complete strangers taking time out of their days to help me - someone they didn't know.

I received so many offers I did say no to the majority of them as had I said yes I could've opened my own beauty store!

I know there are some threads where it seems like begging, but I'd like to think that those who are able to give freely do so with kindness in their hearts and with 99.99% believing they're making a difference.

the selling clothes on eBay is a shitty thing

Swiss, the last thing I want is to sound unsympathetic and I genuinely am pleased things worked out for you.

However, in many ways your thread illustrates the concerns I have about this practise.

You've described someone who I am sure has lovely intentions - but is handing money out to someone in a shop (I remember that thread) and to someone on the Internet - it's possible she has more money than sense she knows what to do with but more likely is a need, to look generous and kind - and I'm not saying that isn't sincere but that it is so easily taken advantage of it worries me.

The fact you and others didn't take advantage of it doesn't mean the practice should be encouraged.

Right. I'm going to potentially stir up a complete hornets nest here. I hope I don't embarrass anyone. I was on a thread that has been mentioned by a recipient here.

I sent some clothes that were too small for my son, and some books and toiletries that I was never going to use. I paid about ooo £5 for postage. Said mner wanted to send a Thankyou card but I declined.

I said to my dh that the stuff was earmarked for the charity shop but I'd chosen to send it to a random person on MN. Sure I'm technically out of pocket for £5 but that covered the coffee I would have had if I'd gone into town to donate the stuff.

At that point in my life I was happy to pass that stuff on. I'd doubt anything was really re-sellable. So im happy that 6 months later she's here stating how helpful it was. She hasn't name changed (I have). Which sort of makes me think it was nothing less than legit. It was like an Xmas shoebox appeal. You pay your money and take your chance.

It's not like she has any of my details or has plagued me for more stuff.

But don't you see that, in helping someone who I have no doubt is lovely and legit, it acts as a neon light to chancers? Who realise 'aha, on this website if I say my husband walked out and my kids have no food I'll get some stuff'?

And that in its way is damaging to the sort of people you mention. As people are taken advantage of, people become more and more cynical.

I have helped people out on a very small forum I'm a part of. It's a lovely thing to do and I totally get why people do it - BUT - it's not without risks, not just to individuals but the forum as a whole.

If you're the lady who sent the green pyjamas (amongst others) then I can tell you they have been well loved! :)

Oh I don't know.

I have taken part in the MN Secret Santa, helped someone out with something I could afford to give via PM, helped out with my time on one occasion, donated to a Shoebox Appeal via a MN poster publicising it, and I was happy to do all of those things and happy to know that I may or may not be being taken advantage of. I'll have no way of knowing ever if any of those things were the right thing to do.

If I give a quid to a homeless person in the street, and they spend it on a coffee or on their next fix, or if I get taken in by a scammer who "just needs £1 to call home, I've lost my wallet, I'm ever so grateful" (done both) then is it any better or worse, morally?

I'll never know if my donation to Kids Co. went to any child in need, but I don't feel bad abut donating it.

There are chancers and takers in life, there are people who are sometimes generous or sometimes not, there are times when it benefits you to give more than the recipient to receive.

I don't like the threads that derail, but I can't agree that a site rule would work - very few people offer on thread anyway, I would think, so you'd never stop the behind the scenes goings-on.

MN post the warning about "not giving more than you can spare" and that's it, isn't it? If you can spare it (and can be OK with the idea that you'll never really know if it fulfilled the intention), well, up to you, surely?

I do see your point and I want to stress that I would never send money. But let's presume I did send someone some pjs for their son. Let's presume 100 mners sent pjs. Is that really akin to the great train robbery?

I've always donated clothes to charity shop once done, or passed them on to friends. Even the biggest scammer in the world isn't going to get far with 100 pairs of tractor pjs.

I have been on MN for 10 years and it has got much better, and when i see a thread saying 'no idea how to afford the heating this month' I might look or scroll past. Just like one saying 'what Boden shorts shall I buy'. I'm clever enough to decide what to do with either query and whether to interact with the op or not.

Some of them get lucky Maryz. It's as simple as that.

The famous one we are all (not terribly discreetly) alluding to rolls on and on.

One was started last week and the OP was given short shrift and told to look on freecycle and buy a bag of taters.

If there was a complete ban on offers of money/goods, on thread and by pm...

It would be completely unworkable. How do you police PMs? Do you think the intended recipient is going to report it to MNHQ and say "That bastard SoupDragon offered me her DSs cast off uniform".

Do you ban offers to send a replacement soft toy that a poster's child has lost, a version of which you happen to have sitting unloved in the loft? Or something which the OP can't find anywhere and just happens to be in your local store. I've sent both of these and just told the recipient to put some money in a charity box if they mention payment. I'm sure there are other similar examples.

TBH, I think it is far more damaging when people give emotional support and get heavily involved - should we ban that too or simply warn people that all might not be as it seems and that they should never give more than they can afford to give, emotionally or financially.

Some threads don't go further than advice because that's all the OPs wanted. Some threads go a bit mad in the same way some AIBU turn into a massive pile on. The first few posters set the tone. The time of day/week/month, the way the OP responds and what their posting history is like of course all plays into it too. But if a thread does drag on with lots of offers it doesn't mean the OP was actually begging just because people chose to offer them stuff.

Really loathe the idea that anyone talking about not having much money and needing advice is a suspected con artist. It's not like it's particularly unusual to be skint at the moment and other parents can give fantastic advice about how to stretch food budgets or use less energy.

I think HQs standard warning to not give more than you can afford to lose is fine actually.

But I do get what you mean OP. I hate to see people I reckon are probably genuine and who are politely turning down offers of help be talked about suspiciously.

I don't know if anyone will remember but a mumsnetter about 8/9 years ago offered 20 lots of £50 to people who were really struggling. She'd had a windfall.

It was a really lovely gesture but months later she was criticised for it.